'70s Ibanez "lawsuit" Les Paul anyone?

[Dru Edwards]

Anyone familiar with the '70s Ibanez lawsuit guitars? I played a '77 Les Paul tonight at the guitar store and was shocked at how wonderful it played and sounded. $350 and I'm tempted regardless of the name on the headstock (I'm familiar with the history of these guitars).

It's got the bolt-on neck, great action, and it looks beautiful. It has some weight to it too but not as heavy as a Gibson.

I have no idea if it has the original pickups, which from my research would be "super '70s", but I suspect they might be. They have some bite to them and clean up well. No mud. Great tone through the Traynor YCV-50 Blue tube amp (which I have).

Anyone have some stories about these guitars, either from reading or playing?

[rct]

The "lawsuit" was over headstock design(s) and logo scripting. By 1977 Ibanez had already changed their headstock shape and logo in anticipation of what would be a simple action to stop copying trademark/servicemarked characteristics of Gibson(and Fender) guitars.

The word "lawsuit" is the most overused, inaccurate description of the quality of any guitar ever.

They were nothing more than ok. Tokai included. None of them were that great, all guitar players I grew up with wanted real Fenders and Gibsons, not copies. It wasn't until the mid 90's when the internets started gaining steam and things like Yahoo auctions(eBay) started trying to find more and more creative ways to sell stuff that the word "lawsuit" started being used.

If you like it, buy it. It has no extra special mojo just because of the year of it's manufacture.

rct

[Bob Womack]

I was never into the bolt-neck copies, but there are people who to this day who use and swear by one copy, the Burny by Fernandez. In fact, one of my favorite guitarists, Andrew Latimer of Camel, uses only a flame top Burny Super Grade for his Les Paul work and has for over twenty years. It is a beautiful sounding guitar.



Bob

[Father Mike]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

Anyone familiar with the '70s Ibanez lawsuit guitars? I played a '77 Les Paul tonight at the guitar store and was shocked at how wonderful it played and sounded. $350 and I'm tempted regardless of the name on the headstock (I'm familiar with the history of these guitars).

It's got the bolt-on neck, great action, and it looks beautiful. It has some weight to it too but not as heavy as a Gibson.

I have no idea if it has the original pickups, which from my research would be "super '70s", but I suspect they might be. They have some bite to them and clean up well. No mud. Great tone through the Traynor YCV-50 Blue tube amp (which I have).

Anyone have some stories about these guitars, either from reading or playing?

I have had a couple of the "lawsuit" guitars, one was a white SG bodied Ibanez double neck, gold hardware, a nice guitar but too heavy to stand up and play and too awkward to sit down and play. The other was a bolt neck LP style like the one you described.

$350 sounds about like the going price for one of those, although it's been a while for me. I think the Ibanez LP guitars sold for $250 when they were new, if memory serves. The one I had had a hollow plywood top, that took the wind out of my sails.

[Hurricane Bob]

One of my guitar students brought one in to the store, said his parents bought it for $1000.00 and he raved about how great it is. I showed him my Robin Artisan and he shut up.

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by Hurricane Bob

One of my guitar students brought one in to the store, said his parents bought it for $1000.00 and he raved about how great it is. I showed him my Robin Artisan and he shut up.

$1000 for a '70s Ibanez? That seems like a ridiculous price. Or is it one of the new Ibanezes?

Is Robin a luthier? I'm not familiar with him/her/brand.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

$1000 for a '70s Ibanez? That seems like a ridiculous price...

Depends on the model; some of those korina Explorer/V instruments or L-5/Super 400/Johnny Smith archtops (TMK the real reason for Gibson's legal action - they were every bit as good, and often better, than contemporary Kalamazoo production at one-fourth the price) have acquired collector status on their merits as good-sounding, fine-playing instruments in their own right, and routinely command four-figure prices in original condition...

[rct]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Depends on the model; some of those korina Explorer/V instruments or L-5/Super 400/Johnny Smith archtops (TMK the real reason for Gibson's legal action - they were every bit as good, and often better, than contemporary Kalamazoo production at one-fourth the price)

You can't sue somebody for making something good, you sue them for making something that can be confused with yours at a reasonable distance, like recent years Gibson vs PRS over singlecut electrics. Good never ever had anything to do with it, and repeating that a guitar maker was sued for making good copies does everyone a disservice.

This is why they were sued:



They were copies, plain and simple. Most guitar players that I grew up with would laugh at anyone using an Ibanez Tele, that's just how it was. We were not falling over each other to get these guitars that were so good they got sued, we wanted nothing to do with them once we had made enough money to not have anything to do with them.

rct

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Depends on the model; some of those korina Explorer/V instruments or L-5/Super 400/Johnny Smith archtops (TMK the real reason for Gibson's legal action - they were every bit as good, and often better, than contemporary Kalamazoo production at one-fourth the price) have acquired collector status on their merits as good-sounding, fine-playing instruments in their own right, and routinely command four-figure prices in original condition...

Hi Steve, thanks for your feedback. Did you play many back in the day?

Originally Posted by rct

You can't sue somebody for making something good, you sue them for making something that can be confused with yours at a reasonable distance, like recent years Gibson vs PRS over singlecut electrics. Good never ever had anything to do with it, and repeating that a guitar maker was sued for making good copies does everyone a disservice.

This is why they were sued:

<<snippet pic>>
They were copies, plain and simple. Most guitar players that I grew up with would laugh at anyone using an Ibanez Tele, that's just how it was. We were not falling over each other to get these guitars that were so good they got sued, we wanted nothing to do with them once we had made enough money to not have anything to do with them.

rct

Hi RCT, I can understand moving up to the 'real thing' once you had the money, much like in today's world going from an Epiphone to a Gibson. Was the mentality back then similar to today's mentality towards "Chibsons"? (although those are fakes and the Ibanezes are copies)

[Steve DeRosa]

Ever play an Ibanez Johnny Smith copy - $475 new w/HSC when introduced?

George Benson did - I saw him live - and he had a stable of top-tier jazzboxes at his disposal (TMK it was that very guitar that led to him to sign his four-decade-plus endorsement deal with Ibanez)...

So did I - BTW I began playing in 1962 and I was raised on archtops; FWIW they really were/are that good, especially considering that both Gibson and Fender were at the absolute nadir of their quality and players as a whole knew it (FYI I was there, too) - sorry I didn't grab one (or one of its acoustic counterparts) while the getting was good...

As far as the logo is concerned, I doubt even Ray Charles would mistake it for the Gibson (or Fender) script - and he's blind and dead...

In view of the fact that, in more recent times, Gibson unsuccessfully attempted to sue PRS for producing a twin-humbucker single-cut solidbody ("That's not a Gibson" - Stevie Wonder), I'll simply take it as another instance of a bully response to real competition - plus qu'il change, plus c'est la meme chose...

Peace out...

[blue]

I will never own an Ibanez lawsuit Lester. But only because I LOVE their original designs! I love the Artists! Those and the Yamaha SGs! I grew up in the SF Bay Area. The Dead were playing Ibanez, and Carlos Santana helped design the Yamaha SG2000.

The Lawsuits are cool. But you show me an Artist with some abalone on it, and you instantly transport me back 37 or so years

[rct]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

Hi RCT, I can understand moving up to the 'real thing' once you had the money, much like in today's world going from an Epiphone to a Gibson. Was the mentality back then similar to today's mentality towards "Chibsons"? (although those are fakes and the Ibanezes are copies)

"When you gettin a real guitar?" That would be what you would hear endlessly when there was an Ibanez, Degas, Tokai, Kent, and on and on and on, whatever copy was being used. Copies. Tryin to look like the guy with a Strat while not being the guy with the Strat.

Todays fakes are just stupid. They are not nearly as prolific as the internet would have you believe, and anyone that buys a Gibson Les Paul for 300 bux and then tells all their friends how smart they are well, they deserve it!

rct

[blue]

Originally Posted by Dru Edwards

Was the mentality back then similar to today's mentality towards "Chibsons"? (although those are fakes and the Ibanezes are copies)

There was a turning point where good Japanese guitars became better than the big 2 in America. We just didn't realize it for 5 or 10 years. I think around '81 or so people started noticing how good they were. I remember playing every bass in a Guitar Center around 81 or so and the single stand out was a Yamaha. I "got it" then. A few years later I saw Sir Paul McCartney playing a Yamaha bass, and felt vindicated

Before that time we were raised to believe the words "made in Japan" meant crap. And for a long while it was accurate as most of what we saw, not just instruments, was bad "made in China" level today. Disposable toys, etc.

Remember there was no internet. Word spread by mouth. Without the internet there wouildn't have been a cult of the "love rock" for instance.

[Sombras]

Around 1984 I bought a late-70s Ibanez Rocket Roll flying V--spitting image of the 50s-era Gibson korina V's. I remember it being an extremely well made guitar that sounded fantastic and was a dream to play. I unearthed it from a closet in 2007 and used it to fund my re-entry to electric playing. I wish I still had it!

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by blue

There was a turning point where good Japanese guitars became better than the big 2 in America. We just didn't realize it for 5 or 10 years. I think around '81 or so people started noticing how good they were. I remember playing every bass in a Guitar Center around 81 or so and the single stand out was a Yamaha. I "got it" then. A few years later I saw Sir Paul McCartney playing a Yamaha bass, and felt vindicated

Before that time we were raised to believe the words "made in Japan" meant crap. And for a long while it was accurate as most of what we saw, not just instruments, was bad "made in China" level today. Disposable toys, etc.

Remember there was no internet. Word spread by mouth. Without the internet there wouildn't have been a cult of the "love rock" for instance.

Thanks for your input, Blue. Reading your comments make me think about the "made in China" brand. The guitars coming out of China are much better than 10 years ago. I prefer my Gibsons though