Do vintage acoustics eventually deteriorate tonally?

[fongie]

Originally Posted by Chazmo

I meant to mention that this whole conversation just sounds like a Guitar Center ploy to put Mike in a '60s Martin.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Indeed! But in saying that, old guitars need looking after and lots of TLC. MY 0-16NY gets played to keep the wood resonating, and always stored in it's case. Like all things, if care and commonsense is not provided than damage is on the card.

[sfden1]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

So, short version: yes, you can drive a guitar's top so hard for so long that it will seem to lose most of its tone, but replacing the braces will give it a new lease of life.

Hope that makes sense.

Wade Hampton Miller

Very interesting comments Wade. Just to add to that a bit, often the loss of tone in an old guitar is simply due to one or more of the braces having come loose or being cracked. My SJ had three loose braces that were re-glued (along with a neck reset) with HHG, and the result seemed like a completely different (and better) guitar.

Dennis Berck, the luthier in Eugene who did my SJ, told me that old Gibson's are especially prone to the braces coming loose over time, leading me to suspect that many of the dull sounding ones that are reported could be greatly improved simply by having having any of the braces that may have come loose re-glued.

[Fred]

Maybe it depends on one's ears. Reverend Gary Davis used to buy new guitars about every 10 years....said he wore them out. Andres Segovia had a classical that he jettisoned after many, many years, claiming that it no longer sounded right. Me? I wouldn't know. I had one well-known luthier tell me a good guitar should last at least 200 years. That's long enough for me.

[FrankHS]

Originally Posted by Fred

I wouldn't know. I had one well-known luthier tell me a good guitar should last at least 200 years. That's long enough for me.

Or if you are Willie Nelson, maybe 20 years.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Yes, old and/or heavily played steel string acoustic instruments can in fact wear out if they get played hard enough and for many, many thousands of hours, and, yes, this can affect the tone.

I'm not talking about normal replacement items like nuts, saddles, tuning gears, frets or even fretboards, all of which can and will wear out and need to be replaced after years of normal heavy playing. It's the tone itself I'm referring to.

The good news is that even that can be addressed and restored by replacing the braces underneath the top.

Years ago on RMMGA we had this discussion, where the question of "wood fatigue" came up. There was the usual range of opinions, with those of us who've made our livings at playing music saying "Yes, it can happen," and amateur players saying, in effect: "You're crazy, I've been playing guitar for forty seven years now and never even heard of such a thing!"

And the highly respected guitar builder Kathy Wingert chimed in and said: "Yes, guitars can wear out, but I've found that if you replace the braces that they can be brought back to life."

And she's right. I had an instrument I thought I'd worn out, but had kept for sentimental reasons. I talked to Scott Baxendale, of the Colfax Guitar Shop in Denver, who agreed with Kathy's opinion and said: "Sure, i can fix that for you." He pulled off the back, replaced the braces and the fretboard for me, all for a reasonable sum, and the instrument was in fact returned to full playability. It sounds great and I still play it quite a bit, though I don't gig out with it as I once did.

So, short version: yes, you can drive a guitar's top so hard for so long that it will seem to lose most of its tone, but replacing the braces will give it a new lease of life.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

I respect Kathy Wingert, but this one quote does not provide (for me) the basis of a factual resource on which to form an opinion...and not the one example with Baxendale's repair. Anecdotal, at best.

This somewhat simplistic (and inaccurate, IMO) portrayal of what *might* have been posted on RMMGA a number of years ago is also something that I would not rely on.

As one who would have been a part of the group that "made our livings at playing music" (as Wade says), I do *not* share Wade's opinion on this...and if I weighed in on RMMGA during the long-ago discussion Wade refers to, I would have said the same thing, then.

I've never heard a classical guitar or a steel-string guitar that has been (so-called) "played out".

I remember vaguely many discussion on RMMGA about many things...but my memory tells me that there was *never* any consensus on this topic, with the line of demarcation between professional and non-professional musicians there...not only this, but there was never more than a small handful of musicians participating on RMMGA that were actual touring pros.

This is all my opinion, of course, and Wade is welcome to his opinion, as well.

On topic: The thing is, that a flat-top (or radiused top) steel-string guitar is inherently less stable than tailpiece and soundpost instruments such as the violin. We certainly don't know how long an extremely well-made steel-string guitar will last, structurally-speaking....they have only been made for about 85-90 years.

We do clearly know that poorly made steel-string guitars can and do have structural problems, all the time...and these instruments have zero chance of standing the test of time.

One other thing:

Pierre Bensusan's old cedar-topped Lowden was built in 1978, and I would estimate that it has logged as many hours as any guitar on the planet, of that era...and he's still playing it as his main guitar. Yes, I know...one guitar, anecdotal!

I repeat this: I've never heard a classical guitar or a steel-string guitar that has been (so-called) "played out".

I have played thousands of guitars, many old/vintage instruments, over many (38) years.

...and at my age, I'm actually not worried about it. My instruments will clearly out-live me...

[JRB]

Originally Posted by sfden1

Dennis Berck, the luthier in Eugene who did my SJ, told me that old Gibson's are especially prone to the braces coming loose over time, leading me to suspect that many of the dull sounding ones that are reported could be greatly improved simply by having having any of the braces that may have come loose re-glued.

From a very respected repairman: "Only a Gibson isn't Glued Enough."

Signed,

A guy whose '50s Gibson needs some brace regluing...

[mikedanton]

Thanks for everyone's comments. I'm going to try out some vintage guitars this weekend. Can't wait.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

I respect Kathy Wingert, but this one quote does not provide (for me) the basis of a factual resource on which to form an opinion...and not the one example with Baxendale's repair. Anecdotal, at best.

Yes, it is anecdotal, I concede that. I tried to get this studied in a scientific manner at the Enrico Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Illinois, but - gosh darn it! - my grant application got denied!

In terms of whether an acoustic instrument can get worn out, well, maybe yes, maybe no. I don't claim to know for certain, but I do know what Kathy Wingert and Scott Baxendale have told me on the matter. Replacing the braces certainly does seem to help rejuvenate that tired old steel string acoustic instrument.

Can acoustic instruments wear out? Well, they operate in a mechanical way, and one thing I do remember from seventh grade science class is that anything mechanical can eventually break down and/or wear out. Whether you choose to accept that reasoning on this issue is, of course, your choice.

It might not have been RMMGA where that discussion took place, and your mention of that made me think on it. Kathy Wingert has posted a lot more on the 13th Fret than she ever has on RMMGA, and it's likely that that's where she gave me the idea to get the braces replaced on my dulcimer.

You can ask her if you like - I think I did call her and thank her once I got the dulcimer back and it was much restored. She might remember that.

As to our relative experiences playing music, Larry, from the posts of yours I've read over the years it seems clear that you haven't logged the time playing in bars and in bluegrass jam sessions that I have. You're an extremely precise and advanced player, and I know you've spent immense amounts of time playing music, but I think we run with completely different musical crowds.

As for me, it's St. Patrick's Day, and I have to get ready to go play in a loud and sweaty Irish bar. Have a good night!


Wade Hampton Miller

[Tony Burns]

Violins are a great example of longevity -many of the best violins were made in the 1700's - and are still being played .Im not going to say that they dont need some TLC from time to time -but theirs alot of them. i have a 1850's Howard A foote " The prize "which is a killer of a guitar especially for a parlor -it sounds great and of course its pampered - The old guitars, banjos, mandolins, electrics etc. that i own are looked upon as myself being their care taker to be passed on at some point to someone else who will again be their care taker - a couple of them were gotten from people who felt the same way as I do ( who have left this world )-Ive also boughten good quality hardshell cases for them to help their longevity, for the odd instrument here and their like a old German fretted zither i acquired about 35 years ago -I actually built a nice case for it -since none are available or could be obtained to protect that top end Brazilian Rosewood instrument .

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

There's no reason, other than neglectful care and maintenance, for a vintage guitar to be structurally unsound or to lose tone. Pre-war Martins are among the most sought after guitars in the world ... for their tone.

The animal glue used in Pre-WWII Martins will eventually deteriorate, and the guitars will become unplayable. Maybe they will be able to be put back together again - maybe not.

That, hopefully, won't happen for another 500 years or so. Many of the wonderful Italian violins, violas and string basses made in the 1800's are still being played today. From what I understand, those old violins do need to be taken apart from time to time and rebuilt.

Violins don't use the complex glued in bracing system Martin guitars use. In fact, there's no cross braces at all - just a sound post between the top and back that is not glued in. Acoustic guitars are far more complex and have many more parts than a Stradivarius violin.

I would guess that modern guitars built with modern glues should hold together for centuries longer than Martins made from hide glues.

I have a small collection of vintage Fender guitar amplifiers and vintage Jensen speakers. The speakers become very fragile as the animal glues used in the paper cones deteriorate and weakens. It's a drag because when those old speakers "blow" and I send them out to be reconed they have to use a new cone that is close but not exactly the same as the old one and then they do not sound the same.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by mikedanton

...do quality vintage guitars eventually lose their tone?

Hi Mike…
Might want to ask some players who own 300-400 year old Violins (which sell for millions).

There are a lot of 'theories' out there and some are are just pure Guitar Lore whereas others may be true. I've played a lot of early 1900s guitars which still have a lot of life in them (and tone to spare).

And I bought guitars for what they sound like now, not what they will become.

[skyver]

Apparently, Ervin Somogyi discusses how guitars wear out in his book The Responsive Guitar (I haven't read it - $140 for each of two volumes). I have read about how Segovia's Hauser guitar lost its tone and couldn't be repaired, so he donated it to the Metropolitan Art Museum. Good classical guitars are more lightly built than most steel-string guitars, and Segovia played his more in a year than most of us will play in a lifetime, so it's understandable that you don't hear of it happening often.

[lennylux]

You only need to look to the membership here to see why this is hardly likely to be a problem these days, people have multiple guitars and play/wear is spread evenly across the 'herd'.

When you add that to the sentiments stated above about touring professionals playing more in a year or two than most of us would or could in a decade or longer, it shows how unlikely or how very rare this problem is likely to be now.

[jeastman]

I've heard they do. James Taylor seems to think so http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNnuUZ_lSg4

However, I'm surprised the dealer advised you against something so universally acclaimed for it's tone as a prewar Martin. And then to say a 60s Martin (known for being overbuilt) is the best alternative is a little strange.

With no first hand knowledge, it at least makes sense to me that an old guitar, which experiences stresses unlike any other instrument, just gets worn out.

One of my favorite chapters in the book "Guitar" is titled 'Evanescence'. Talks about one of the things that makes live music and the acoustic guitar beautiful is it's never the same and is gone tomorrow.

[skyver]

Also, expensive hand-made guitars are built very lightly for more volume and responsiveness, while factory-made guitars are built much more sturdily to resist warranty claims. Compare a family car or truck that can last 250,000 miles or more to a Formula One car that is built to last until the end of a race.