High end guitar (Martin, Taylor, Bourgeois) vs Luthier-guided build-your-own?

[rtfm]

Hi,
I've been toying with the desire to buy a really good Dred, and was leaning towards the Bourgeois Slope D Country Boy. But I have recently discovered that quite a few local luthiers offer courses in building one's own instrument in their workshop, using their own woods, and under their direct supervision. Courses range from 3 weeks intensive (8 hrs/day) to a 4-hour building session once a week.

The cost of these personally built guitars are comparable to the cost of a Bourgeois, so there's no obvious cost advantage/disadvantage in it.

I also have no doubt that the tonewoods, appointments, and general build quality would be comparable to top name brands also. My main question is whether they would meet the extremely high standards of tone produced by the top makers.

Has anyone attended one of these courses? And if so, how would you rate the tonal quality of the guitar you made?

Regards,
Duncan

[Mbroady]

I look forward to responses. I have luither in my area that also offers one on one build instructions and would one day, in the near future, like to participate.

[mirwa]

Sorry, do not think of build courses as a comparative end result.

Think of them as a learning experience, will your guitar be good, I am sure it will, will it be comparable to a high end taylor, highly unlikely.

A guitar build is about hand skills and attention to detail, not building a lego set, is it possible to achieve a perfect result first time around, Mmm IMHO doubtful.

Steve

[printer2]

I have spent more in my guitar building journey than it would have cost me to buy a few guitars that would have kept me more than satisfied. I am sure one day I might make a fantastic guitar or two, many more till then that will be playable. I would say build a guitar for the personal satisfaction and for the experience along with coming out with a good guitar. A $5k+ guitar, maybe not.

[phavriluk]

My first guitar is one I made during a week's trip to a luthier's lair in upstate New York. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and the guitar is a wonderful instrument with many memories attached.

Having said that, this is an expensive way to get a guitar.

If OP's purpose is to get something that performs above its cost I think he's better off buying a storebought guitar.

And I'm thoroughly comfortable with the idea that the guitar I made has very limited resale value and would be very hard to sell off should I get so motivated.

Some years ago I attended an aircraft construction forum whose moderator asked the attendees to put their heads down and think about their homebuilt airplane. Then he suggested that anybody whose fantasies involved flying the airplane ought to go out and buy one. Those folks who fantasized about building the airplane were likelier to enjoy the process and as a treat at the end of it, have an airplane. Flying it wasn't the big draw, building it was.

I think the same general rules have a place in guitar building, too.

[B. Howard]

Your first build, even though under supervision of a luthier, will not be on equal terms in fit, finish or function to the instruments you mention and will likely be based on a kit from LMI, Bluescreek or someone similar.

Having a competent Luthier build you a guitar would be more on par with those choices.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

My first guitar is one I made during a week's trip to a luthier's lair in upstate New York. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and the guitar is a wonderful instrument with many memories attached.

Having said that, this is an expensive way to get a guitar.

If OP's purpose is to get something that performs above its cost I think he's better off buying a storebought guitar.

And I'm thoroughly comfortable with the idea that the guitar I made has very limited resale value and would be very hard to sell off should I get so motivated.

Some years ago I attended an aircraft construction forum whose moderator asked the attendees to put their heads down and think about their homebuilt airplane. Then he suggested that anybody whose fantasies involved flying the airplane ought to go out and buy one. Those folks who fantasized about building the airplane were likelier to enjoy the process and as a treat at the end of it, have an airplane. Flying it wasn't the big draw, building it was.

I think the same general rules have a place in guitar building, too.

The above bears repeating, you need to build 20 or more to acquire the skills it requires to build instruments with professional level fit and finish.

That's the big advantage of being an amateur, it can be more about the journey than the destination.

[Bruce Sexauer]

While I agree that you are unlikely to build a guitar as well or as good as you can buy, there is more to a guitar than that. The degree to which you love and accept a guitar can not be over rated, and the more you are involved in the process of creating the instrument, the more it is truly a part of you. You can’t actually buy this quality directly, and it makes all the difference.

[Ben-Had]

In my experience the process that suffers the most is finish. In a building class you will come out with what I call s "student finish" which will be just enough to add some protection and appearance to the guitar. The finish takes longer to complete (depending on the type you are using) than the building of the guitar. Next is the fit. Depending on how much you complete, as compared to your instructor, will determine how the fit is. Students can make a lot of mistakes. As far as function (sound/playability), I believe one can achieve as good or better than a factory guitar depending on your instructor. My 2 cents.

[redir]

I can't say for sure since I've never done it but I think the answer is, it depends. Just like anything in life one can be an expert on any given subject but terrible at teaching it. Conversely one can not know as much about a subject as they claim but be really good at pretending they do.

In general factory guitars are over built so I would think a highly experienced luthier who runs a school could at least help you build a very good sounding instrument. This would require a small classroom and lots of attention. As other's mentioned though they will let you make plenty of mistakes where fit and finish is concerned and just leave them in place. That won't matter to the tone of the instrument any way.

I think it would be a really cool experience and you will get a good enough guitar so long as you go with a reputable school. So I say go for it.

[phavriluk]

Tim, I think your comments are extremely valid. My one-on-one project got a whole lot of attention to detail as it moved along, and setup was thorough (thanks, Dave!). It was also the work product of literally hundreds of prior iterations and refinements over time. By a skilled and experienced luthier. Being overbuilt was not a problem. The soundboard and bracing were tap-tuned as construction progressed, so in that sense it was optimized to the materials used. And no warrantees, no worries. And as time passes I appreciate more and more the nuances of the project that I would have had no idea of doing on my own, yet made for excellent playability and sound. I've often toyed with the idea of stripping the instrument down and completing the finish, and doing some binding. When I asked my instructor his opinions on the matter, he suggested I do no such thing and endanger its playability and sonic performance, which he claims are 'as good as any D-18 I've ever seen'. I was encouraged to leave well enough alone by wiser heads than mine.

[woodbox]

Hey rtfm,
great thread, and I've enjoyed reading every word of every post.

Having recently built my first guitar under the tutelage of an experience builder, I have some input that may be pertinent.

First, I think it may be wise to consider the points you are contrasting as mutually exclusive.
Meaning, either build a guitar OR buy a guitar.

Although I can see where you could try to consider/contrast the two concepts largely because it's potentially similar money, the process and end result are vastly different, as many have referenced here already.

If you want to build a guitar, do that.
And leave it at that.

If you want to buy a higher end guitar, do that.
And be done with that.

The time, effort and money to build your own is probably much greater than you are currently thinking.
But the reward is there.
I'm really glad I did it, and I'm planning to begin my second in the fall.

But I have a closet full of nice Martins, a very good Taylor and a superlative Gibson. But I'll probably take my little hand-made-by-me to the open mic this evening.
Is that because it sounds better than one of my Martins?
No.
It's because I like playing it, I'm proud of it, it's a nice guitar.
But I have some Martins that will blow it off the stage in virtually any category you might choose to compare it.

The two ideas..build my own vs buy an upscale..are in many/most ways mutually exclusive.
Pick one.

[printer2]

One of the things I find makes or breaks the guitar as far as looks is the binding. Do a good job at everything else and if you have a bad section or two and it just looks off. Plastic binding is much easier to get right. Mind you with good supervision your chance of getting it right is greater.

[yellowesty]

FWIW, I've built a half dozen guitars. I've gotten advice and direction from accomplished luthiers during my builds, but I've never worked directly with them while building. I work slowly and often repeat an operation several times (disassembling or starting over as necessary) before I move on, so building a guitar takes me about 3 months, at ~20 hours a week. And the workmanship of my result is never as visually "perfect" as the better Chinese guitars. But, after my first or second guitar, I was very pleased with the tonal results and the playability -- and people who saw my guitars thought they looked good (though I knew where all the flaws were).

Bruce captured the reason I continue to build guitars -- the instrument I build becomes an extension of myself. None of my guitars sound like any commercial guitar that I've heard. But I do like the sound of my guitars, and I've developed a few of my own ways of doing things. I'm continuing to build.

If your goal is primarily to own a high-end guitar, I'd suggest buying one. More specifically, I'd suggest buying a luthier-built guitar, maybe used. Building a guitar (or, more realistically, a few guitars) is another thing altogether.

It's been observed that building a guitar to save money on guitars is like building a boat to save money on fish.

As ever, FWIW.

[Alan Carruth]

I've taught a of of students over the years. None of them has gone out with an instrument that didn't sound good and hold up as well as mine. Appearance is another thing.

Factories live by fit and finish, and it's difficult to beat them at that game. The only ways to do it are to jig up to the same extent they do, or acquire really top-notch tool chops.

The main benefit of making your own is the bragging rights. To that end, you should plan on taking the time to make all of the parts, with the exceptions of cutting fret slots by hand, and the tuners and strings, of course. Invariably, if you buy something, like, say, a bridge, that's the part your buddies will point to as you show it off and ask: "Did you make that?" When you 'fess up you lose all of the credit for the rest of the work.

If you do build one, take your time. Stay simple. Enjoy the process and the company of the other students. And be aware that there are few activities in the world more addictive that instrument making. Nobody makes just one....