Unrealistic request from the soundperson at church...

[Gypsyblue]

We have a new soundperson at church. Never met him before.

Yesterday I brought my ES-335 and my little Princeton Reverb amp. 18 watts through a 10" Jensen C10N speaker.

The soundperson put a mic in front of the speaker and went back upstairs to where the sound board is.

I turned it up to about 2 1/2 volume, 5 treble, 5 bass while we were rehearsing for the first service.

Didn't seem loud at all, and it was uncomfortably clean.

Instantly he was back down the stairs and telling me it was to loud.

He said: "I want you to hear yourself only through the monitors...not through your amp".

My amp is about three feet behind me.

I went along with it and turned my little amp down to 2.

Sounded like crap. Sounded totally sterile and plinky clean.

Not even a country guitarist or jazz guitarist would be able to get their sound playing that quietly.

I almost said: "Why don't I just play acoustic?"

[Gitarre]

Maybe he's looking for a miracle?

Go with your acoustic. Less to haul around.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by Gitarre

Maybe he's looking for a miracle?

Go with your acoustic. Less to haul around.

Well, they want me to play electric when I'm playing with the band.

But playing "plinky clean" at whisper volume and having to hear myself through only the monitors seems a ridiculous request.

And one no one has asked of me before.

[RustyZombie]

With PA's doing all the heavy lifting nowadays, all you really need are small amps. And with tube amps, its kind of crazy how more power has become such a liability. And it doesn't even take much for tubes before it comes too much.

But I do agree, I think he sounds more than a tad unreasonable.

[Br1ck]

Just say no thank you. He can compensate at the board.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by RustyZombie

With PA's doing all the heavy lifting nowadays, all you really need are small amps. And with tube amps, its kind of crazy how more power has become such a liability. And it doesn't even take much for tubes before it comes too much.

But I do agree, I think he sounds more than a tad unreasonable.

Yes.

I gave up all of my 40 and 50 watt amps a few years back and switched to Fender Princeton Reverb amps (18 watts) and Deluxe Reverb amps (22 watts).

Much easier to get a good guitar sound at the lower volumes most folks play at these days.

[rmp]

He said: "I want you to hear yourself only through the monitors...not through your amp".


that's a tuff one, In all the years I've been at this, and all the sound guys I've worked with, never came across this sort of demand.

and, I'm not sure why he cares what the stage is hearing. that's for the players up there to sort out, his territory is the main house (usually)...

usually they just work with what you give them unless you're being unrealistically loud, and at that point, if you are not working with them, they cut you out of the mix and you're on your own.

however doesn't sound like you were even close to that.

how bout try to get the amp further away next, facing the wall, or behind or in some sort of sound absorbing thingy?

[RustyZombie]

Upon further consideration, I think you should take your acoustic, and see if he asks you to play it quieter.

[bnjp]

Our amps are backstage in an isolation room. Mic'd and as loud as they need to be. Another option would be an attenuator. That way you could get more drive at a lower volume.

If it's a small room, then the sound guy can't mix if he can't turn you down. If he can't mix you into the house, then only the first few rows are hearing you the way you want to be heard.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by rmp

He said: "I want you to hear yourself only through the monitors...not through your amp".


that's a tuff one, In all the years I've been at this, and all the sound guys I've worked with, never came across this sort of demand.

and, I'm not sure why he cares what the stage is hearing. that's for the players up there to sort out, his territory is the main house (usually)...

usually they just work with what you give them unless you're being unrealistically loud, and at that point, if you are not working with them, they cut you out of the mix and you're on your own.

however doesn't sound like you were even close to that.

how bout try to get the amp further away next, facing the wall, or behind or in some sort of sound absorbing thingy?

It occurred to me to put the amp behind the curtain!

No one's ever told me to turn my guitar down so low that I can only hear myself through the monitors.

But really, I think it's that he's new and wants to come off as a take charge kinda guy because there are problems with the sound in our church and I'm sure he's been hired because he said he could solve them.

The problem, IMO, is that the main speakers and the sound booth are two stories up near the ceiling and the band and congregation are two stories down on the main floor.

So the sound person isn't hearing what everyone else is hearing.

The other problem is that I doubt that he really knows what he's doing.

[bnjp]

Originally Posted by Gypsyblue

The other problem is that I doubt that he really knows what he's doing.

Maybe try talking to the guy when there's not the pressure of a service coming up. He might just know more than you think he does. Maybe you come to a compromise, or maybe you learn something from each other.

[Joe F]

I remember those woes with rotating sound techs. For electric I ended up using a Sansamp GT2 straight to the board and ditched the stage amp entirely. Adjust my monitor mix to my needs and then do whatever they want with FOH.

[Bob Womack]

One time I had a church sound guy walk up on stage while I was playing a lead and turn down the gain on my little Marshall combo amp. It took me instantly from crunch and sustain to thunk, thunk, thunk. Uh, no. He thought he was turning down the volume.

This is a trend in modern church PA. They really don't like back line. Unskilled mixers can't handle any stage volume from any instruments. Thus the rubber-sounding percussion pad drum kits. I've got friends whose amps are banished backstage or under the stage. The problem here is one of not understanding that the guitar amp is part of the interactive instrument. It isn't a small freelance PA.

Here's what worked for me: I got a modeling rig, learned to work it for some, uh, killer sounds, then sent the signal to both the console and a dedicated powered monitor with nothing but my guitar (and my own volume control). The two monitors sat side-by-side: One monitor contained the mushy monitor mix from the board (mostly the P&W leader with the bad hair and a slop made by too much left-hand from the pianista competing with the bassist), one had my guitar. I balanced what I heard by changing my position when things gut furry. It made me independent. It made it so that I made no further requests of the sound person. It made said sound person very happy. All I had to do was keep my stage volume down to the same level as everyone else. I lived in my own little bubble of professionalism. With a silly grin.

Barring that, move your amp in front of you, face it back towards you, and tip it up like a monitor. tell him to use the gain control on the console. Better still, ask them to buy a hush cabinet. If they want to put undue burdens on you for quietness, ask them (nicely) to supply the means.

The separate monitor really works.

Does it sound like I'm anti-audio guy? Can't be - I'm recording engineer by trade. I'm just a pragmatist.

Bob

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

One time I had a church sound guy walk up on stage while I was playing a lead and turn down the gain on my little Marshall combo amp. It took me instantly from crunch and sustain to thunk, thunk, thunk. Uh, no. He thought he was turning down the volume.

This is a trend in modern church PA. They really don't like back line. Unskilled mixers can't handle any stage volume from any instruments. Thus the rubber-sounding percussion pad drum kits. I've got friends whose amps are banished backstage or under the stage. The problem here is one of not understanding that the guitar amp is part of the interactive instrument. It isn't a small freelance PA.

Here's what worked for me: I got a modeling rig, learned to work it for some, uh, killer sounds, then sent the signal to both the console and a dedicated powered monitor with nothing but my guitar (and my own volume control). The two monitors sat side-by-side: One monitor contained the mushy monitor mix from the board (mostly the P&W leader with the bad hair and a slop made by too much left-hand from the pianista competing with the bassist), one had my guitar. I balanced what I heard by changing my position when things gut furry. It made me independent. It made it so that I made no further requests of the sound person. It made said sound person very happy. All I had to do was keep my stage volume down to the same level as everyone else. I lived in my own little bubble of professionalism. With a silly grin.

Barring that, move your amp in front of you, face it back towards you, and tip it up like a monitor. tell him to use the gain control on the console. Better still, ask them to buy a hush cabinet. If they want to put undue burdens on you for quietness, ask them (nicely) to supply the means.

The separate monitor really works.

Does it sound like I'm anti-audio guy? Can't be - I'm recording engineer by trade. I'm just a pragmatist.

Bob

Great post. Thanks Bob.

Good to know it isn't just me.

Oh: the drummer does use those rubber percussion pads.

And guess what? He can't hear himself except through the monitors. Just like they want me to do.

[Cochese]

Unfortunately a lot of todays "sound engineers" have no clue how to mix live music. They want to mix a CD and that is very different. A friend of mine was the live sound mixing engineer for the Letterman Show for the last 18 years and on that show the mix we hear on TV is done by a separate person. Live and studio are two different things.

Having said that I've never played in a church and none of the church's that I've been to over the years were designed for amplified sound.

I have one of the best attenuators in the world the Fryette Power Station and that is amazing but in a live setting we guitarist struggle with our volume as the bass and drums are not directional like our amps are.

Facing the amp towards you is not a bad idea but if it's a little open back combo amp there will be just as much sound coming out the back.

When my band plays low volume gigs like country clubs and some casinos I use the Clearsonics Plexi Shield a couple of feet in front of the amp and that will stop the beam into the audience. Another thing that I use as a baffle is a Fender Strat hard case opened up like a V in front of the amp and I drape an acoustic blanket over it and that will really stop the beaming and reduce a good deal of volume.

The problem with ISO cabs or going direct with in-ears is that you lose the guitar amp interaction and will end up using more gain than is necessary. So many guitarists use too much gain and in part it is due to losing all the natural sustain you get by playing a real amp. A modeler or amp emulator can work but it's up to you to consider how much you want to compromise.

I make my living playing and I really get down when I'm in an uncomfortable playing situation. I've done a lot of musical theater gigs over the years and the sound designers are a lot like your sound engineer.

Hey man it's church. Isn't that supposed to be about caring for one another? It seems if you are willing to work with the sound dept they should be willing to work with you. There shouldn't be a "my way or the highway" attitude in any situation. In a perfect world...