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Old 04-22-2017, 09:37 PM
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cotten cotten is offline
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Default 13 Reasons Why

My wife and I recently watched this hit Netflix series. It was VERY different programming for us, both in content and vocabulary! We had reservations about how Hollywood would treat the topic of suicide, and those reservations proved well founded. And yet, there are things to be learned here.

Rather than my trying to do a complete review, let me just say that this is NOT a series I would recommend for anyone under 18 who doesn't have immediate opportunity to discuss each episode with a parent or competent, qualified counselor, preferably one who is particularly well grounded in things we don't discuss here.

On the other hand, IF a parent or qualified counselor will review each episode immediately with their teen, it might be a good opportunity for growth in understanding several difficult topics, such as bullying and cruelty, physical and/or sexual assault, verbal abuse, failure to really see and listen to people who are hurting, and, of course, suicide. Such things are too often ignored, which compounds the seriousness of each of these issues.

If you are a parent, I recommend your reading the article linked below carefully before allowing your teen to watch this series. It's not from my faith perspective, but it makes some great points that parents need to consider. I would also suggest skipping watching the final episode, and instead just talking about it. It may well leave a lasting video image in a teen's mind about the act of slicing one's wrists in a bathtub as an acceptable way of escape - NOT an image I'd want them to have, though it might well be discussed.

I would also urge caution in trying to assign or accept blame when someone commits or attempts suicide. It's far, far more complex than this TV series depicts, and stereotypes can hurt more than help.

Last word here: I've known some teens like "Hannah Baker," and my heart hurts for them. Some have survived and gone on to lead long, happy lives; some didn't. The only reason I would post this is to help my friends here, and myself, learn to be more loving, more helpful to these kids. Each one is truly unique, worth knowing, worth loving, worth sacrificing for.

https://themighty.com/2017/04/rememb...ect-semicolon/

cotten
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Old 04-22-2017, 09:50 PM
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Our well read and highly mature teen read the book and hated it.

There is a rumbling in our school community about the nature of the content and how younger kids will handle it.

My daughter explained the premise of the book and I found it unsavory - not because of the topic but because of the underlying vindictiveness and vengeance which is the main theme of the book.
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Old 04-22-2017, 10:25 PM
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Your daughter is right. There is nothing happy or healthy about the scenes and atmosphere depicted in the Netflix series. It's awful! And it's all too real for far too many young people.

My main concerns with it are that I'm very afraid that it can be "triggering" for young people already struggling. I'm concerned that too many teens (the target audience of the series) do not yet have the maturity to see the bigger issues. When Hannah Baker is hurt, they are likely to internalize, even magnify that hurt within themselves. Not good! I'm also concerned with the way the idea of committing suicide in order to get back at those who hurt you is depicted. The stereotypes. The hopelessness. The lack of sufficient mention of the many different kinds of help that is available, except to show that in Hannah's case how dysfunctional they all were.

Clueless parents. A culture of privilege among athletes and others that sexual abuse is partly the victim's fault. The collusion of adults who should be more concerned about their students than protecting the "system."

There is SO much here to dislike! And yet, and yet... Perhaps, just perhaps, this series will be seen by teens with wise parents or counselors, who will take the time to talk seriously about what happens in each episode. Where things went wrong, and how to avoid it in their own lives. IF that kind of conversation can take place using 13 Reasons Why as a catalyst, then perhaps some good will come from it.

If not, if 12-17 yr. old kids who see it on their own or with just their peers with no one to guide them through it, I am truly concerned about their response - not everyone, of course, but if a single struggling teen has to struggle even harder for having seen this series, or worse, stops struggling and commits suicide, it will be both tragic and predictable.

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Old 04-22-2017, 10:39 PM
dannyg1 dannyg1 is offline
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I felt the opposite of you both. I found the series honest and eye opening in how the smallest slights can contribute to a far larger social picture, whic can end up seeming insurmountable to the target of those slights.
It didn't take much of a push for Hannah's insinuated reputation to become haunting and then frighteningly real.

It's important that people in general, understand the fragility of social standing and status. Imperative actually.
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Old 04-22-2017, 11:00 PM
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I felt the opposite of you both. I found the series honest and eye opening in how the smallest slights can contribute to a far larger social picture, whic can end up seeming insurmountable to the target of those slights.
It didn't take much of a push for Hannah's insinuated reputation to become haunting and then frighteningly real.

It's important that people in general, understand the fragility of social standing and status. Imperative actually.
I do not think that is actually the opposite to what has been previously posted, or at least I did not take it that way. I think there was just the concern that this is something that needs to be thoughtfully considered by parents. Not something to be avoided -as in, trying to NOT be honest or eye opening.

It is a difficult subject. I was suicidal as a teenager. I battle it still at 64. I knew peers that did not make it. As soon as I reached my mid twenties I volunteered with the psychiatrist I saw many times to help council young teens. I could talk about substance abuse and depression. I grew up small with two MUCH bigger brothers - I could talk about bullying and holding back anger and fear.

I have not seen the series. I do not get Netflix, but anything that brings discussion about mental health issues is a good thing IMO. But, and it is a big but, there does indeed need to have the ability and the environment that safely allows those discussions. Concern about copycats actions, or judgments about results is legitimate. I knew someone who committed suicide quite deliberately to "get back" at someone.

What a hopeless thing. We can call it stupid (after all, how are you going to know that you did get back at them), but it is a real thing.

Fortunately I think we as a society are much much better at accepting discussion on mental health issues. It feels like it is better to me anyway. There is a long way to go, but talk is good.
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Old 04-22-2017, 11:12 PM
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Thank you for your post, Cotton.
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:25 AM
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I suppose a programme about the roots of suicide is going to be controversial because each viewer is going to bring his or her own worldview to bear on that programme and judge it accordingly. I think the challenge for all of us when reading or seeing an explanation for a common social ill is to recognize that our response will be a mixture of who we are in combination with whatever facts surround the issue.
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Old 04-23-2017, 07:10 AM
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I suppose a programme about the roots of suicide is going to be controversial because each viewer is going to bring his or her own worldview to bear on that programme and judge it accordingly. I think the challenge for all of us when reading or seeing an explanation for a common social ill is to recognize that our response will be a mixture of who we are in combination with whatever facts surround the issue.
The problem my daughter explained wasn't that it talked as you said about the roots and triggers of suicide in a way children can discuss. It seemed rather to be a story about a troubled girl who kills herself for revenge and writes a book blaming everyone for "triggering" her.

As Cotten said, it could have been a segue into meaningful discussions about a very difficult social topic. Instead (I am told) it is a book about a girl heaping guilt on a dozen other people for revenge. It's very messed up (in a bad way).
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Old 04-23-2017, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by fazool View Post
The problem my daughter explained wasn't that it talked as you said about the roots and triggers of suicide in a way children can discuss. It seemed rather to be a story about a troubled girl who kills herself for revenge and writes a book blaming everyone for "triggering" her.

As Cotten said, it could have been a segue into meaningful discussions about a very difficult social topic. Instead (I am told) it is a book about a girl heaping guilt on a dozen other people for revenge. It's very messed up (in a bad way).
Sounds interesting. I'll watch out for it.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:53 AM
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I felt the opposite of you both...
It's important that people in general, understand the fragility of social standing and status. Imperative actually.
I must not have conveyed my intent very well if you feel what you posted is opposite what I did. I don't see it that way at all. I absolutely agree that we must understand people's fragility, and that even the strongest among us needs to feel loved and respected. That's probably the best part of this series' message. What I was trying to point out that this truth is wrapped in a wide variety of other messages, some of which I feel desperately need better explanations for most of this show's target audience.

It is wildly popular with the 12-24 age group here where I live, and apparently few of them have the chance to discuss these difficult life issues and choices with anyone outside their group of friends. Because of that, I think there is real potential for this series to do more harm than good.

This concern has been confirmed in private messages with three young people who have contacted me since I posted this thread here and on Facebook. Two of them told me of how 13 Reasons Why had brought back to the surface some very real struggles they thought had been put behind them. The third, a 20s something lady who had attempted to kill herself multiple times in her teens, who had experienced some of the same things that "Hannah" had, agreed with my concerns completely. Fortunately, each of these three was already receiving "professional" help. I have to trust that it's the best kind. (I alerted one's parents that I know that this show had triggered their daughter's past difficulties; they thanked me and said they would let her doctors know.)

I'm NOT saying we shouldn't talk with our teens, openly and honestly, about these issues! I'm just saying that we shouldn't let this Netflix series do our talking for us. It falls woefully short of what is needed, though as I say, hidden within it are a couple of valuable insights.

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Old 04-23-2017, 11:13 AM
dannyg1 dannyg1 is offline
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Where we diverge is on the idea that this was an illustration of revenge. I found the intent was to show the intricacies of seemingly small slights and building actions that lead to, sometimes overwhelming, societal consequence.

The fact that it has triggered feelings of vulnerability proves its value and that it illustrates the process well. My feeling is that its not only the kids that need help, its us.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:50 AM
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Where we diverge is on the idea that this was an illustration of revenge.....
Like I said, I didn't read it myself but our very advanced and mature teen daughter had a book discussion with us on multiple occasions about this story.

Her takeaway (right or wrong this is what she felt when she read it, and she is very well grounded) was that the main character (Hannah?) committed suicide. Before she did, she wrote 13 letters to various people telling them she killed herself because of things they did to her.

Suicide is never revenge because the dead person is not there to "know" the suffering of their revenge victim. It's a convoluted metaphysical topic but it doesn't work, in my mind.

Anyway, her takeaway was that Hanna was a victim, yes but she turned into an afterlife bully and abuser herself by killing herself solely for revenge and did so in a way to torture 13 other people.

Sounds like a perfect setup for a Quentin Tanrantino movie (whose every bit of work I deplore for similar reasons)
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Old 04-23-2017, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dannyg1 View Post
Where we diverge is on the idea that this was an illustration of revenge. I found the intent was to show the intricacies of seemingly small slights and building actions that lead to, sometimes overwhelming, societal consequence.

The fact that it has triggered feelings of vulnerability proves its value and that it illustrates the process well. My feeling is that its not only the kids that need help, its us.
I hear you, and you're right, we don't quite agree on that part. The young people I've been talking with about this see one of Hannah's purposes in sending the tapes is to set her tormentors straight, and one of her methods was to make them feel some of the pain that they had caused her. That's pretty much my definition of revenge.

I certainly agree that once someone is wounded, even a relatively minor insult or slight can be blown all out of proportion. Something that might not have bothered much them before, like not being asked to sit with someone at lunch, can be perceived as yet another crushing blow. Of course, some of Hannah's hurts were in no way minor.

In fact, this is probably my major reservation about the series. For one of my young friends who has been undergoing both talk therapy and drug therapy, and seemingly doing pretty well, 13 Reasons Why set her back several steps. Like picking at a scab that had been slowly healing, it has renewed the hurt and made it hurt more deeply this time. And remember, she was already getting professional help. Now think about someone like her who is not getting help. See what I mean? There's not a good side to this sort of "triggering."

There is a good side, of course, if by "triggering" we mean that 12 Reasons Why becomes the catalyst for discussions among those who might help and those who might need that help. You're right - we adults need LOTS of help in knowing how best to help! (I don't think that's what most folks think of when they use the term "triggering" though.)

Please don't feel I'm taking you to task on this, Danny. I appreciate your adding your perspective, even if I don't fully agree. It's an important discussion!

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