Calling all Zoom H2n experts.

[Mischief]

Howdy,

Well their sure is a lot of samples and reviews of this great little unit (I just bought one). I've also updated to the latest firmware.

But there seems to be a shortage of insight as to how to maximize the end result with tips or tricks using this unit.

I only picked it up later yesterday so I have only had a few goes with it.

I've set it at 48/ 24 bit for quality
In 4ch and 96 / 24 for stereo.
I had a go with 4ch XY primary and
Also MS as primary mikes.

Then 2ch XY and MS.

The results are very promising but getting best sound for guitar and vox simultaneously will take some practice and that's my primary goal, along with using for video and also recording my guitar during live gigs. I'm thinking auto gain should not be used (which I had used) so not 100% sure.

I'd love some advice what positioning techniques people have had greatest success with along with what combination of mikes used with the correlating settings. Do people use the low cut and or compression?

So far I'm sort of setting it up as if I was using traditional mikes. Although I tried a few less orthodox ways and it sounded okay. So maybe there's some tricks with this mic.

I'm most excited about the MS usage although it looks like many people use the XY in the videos I've seen and not many using MS.



Even trying to figure out the optimal memory for this unit in 2017 seems to elude me. Some of the latest and fastest cards I've been told will be slower then some of the past cards since the H2n won't support the newer classes. So what is the fastest available card available? Transferring 1Gb of recordings yesterday took a few minutes from the H2n to my Mac. Transferring in my Mac was instant. The only info I can find is like from 2011-2012.

Advice, thoughts, insight?

[buzzardwhiskey]

I'm no expert but I have a few suggestions.

1) Generally I sing louder than my guitar "speaks" and that's generally how I like to mix, so about equidistant between your guitar and mouth sounds best... maybe the length of your arm out.

2) Don't use auto-gain. It does weird things.

3) Experiment with different rooms. This is a huge factor.

4) Apply effects in your DAW and not your recorder.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Mischief

...
I've set it at 48/ 24 bit for quality
In 4ch and 96 / 24 for stereo.

If you dig into the specs the self-noise of the H2n is greater than the quantization noise of 16 bit recording, so while 24 bit seems like it should be "better" the purported benefit is lost.

I had a go with 4ch XY primary and
Also MS as primary mikes.

Then 2ch XY and MS.

The MS configurations use a pair of back-to-back cardioids rather than a true bidirectional mic. In my experience the Zoom MS implementations have higher self-noise than their XY configurations.

The results are very promising but getting best sound for guitar and vox simultaneously will take some practice and that's my primary goal,

I would try using XY with the H2n positioned horizontally and adjusted up or down to get the desired balance of guitar and voice. There will not be a lot of separation, however since the 90 degree off axis response of a cardioid is only 6 dB down from the on axis response.

along with using for video

The most critical thing here is placement. Mounting the H2n on the camera defeats the purpose of using an parallel recording workflow, so position the H2n much closer to the source than the camera position.

and also recording my guitar during live gigs.

Not sure how you plan to do this, but if you're taking a line out from an amp or pa mixer beware the low headroom. You may need an output with a level control or an external attenuator to avoid clipping the H2n.

I'm thinking auto gain should not be used (which I had used) so not 100% sure.

I'd love some advice what positioning techniques people have had greatest success with along with what combination of mikes used with the correlating settings. Do people use the low cut and or compression?

Basically never use any of the signal processing during recording. Set conservative levels and do all adjustments in post.

So far I'm sort of setting it up as if I was using traditional mikes. Although I tried a few less orthodox ways and it sounded okay. So maybe there's some tricks with this mic.

I'm most excited about the MS usage although it looks like many people use the XY in the videos I've seen and not many using MS.

I've never come up with any tricks. Not a fan of Zoom MS.

Even trying to figure out the optimal memory for this unit in 2017 seems to elude me. Some of the latest and fastest cards I've been told will be slower then some of the past cards since the H2n won't support the newer classes. So what is the fastest available card available? Transferring 1Gb of recordings yesterday took a few minutes from the H2n to my Mac. Transferring in my Mac was instant. The only info I can find is like from 2011-2012.

The largest and fastest cards these days are SDXC and UHS. I believe the H2n supports SDHC cards, an earlier format with smaller max capacity. But extremely large cards are pretty pointless for audio in my opinion - a 2 GB card records 3+ hours at 44.1/16 and SDHC goes up to 32 GB. Here's a Wikipedia article on various SD card formats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital and here's the H2n compatible cards list: https://www.zoom-na.com/sites/defaul...e_cards_en.pdf

Fran

[Mischief]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

If you dig into the specs the self-noise of the H2n is greater than the quantization noise of 16 bit recording, so while 24 bit seems like it should be "better" the purported benefit is lost.

So if I understand correctly the best sound would come from 16bit /96khz ? Or would another selection yield better results? Would these also be optimal for say uploaded content. I.e. YouTube or sound cloud?

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

The MS configurations use a pair of back-to-back cardioids rather than a true bidirectional mic. In my experience the Zoom MS implementations have higher self-noise than their XY configurations.

Thanks for the insight. If you were forced to use the MS is there any techniques to mitigate the Zoom MS shortcomings? I'm sorry of thinking low gain and close placement may still yield workable results?

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

I would try using XY with the H2n positioned horizontally and adjusted up or down to get the desired balance of guitar and voice. There will not be a lot of separation, however since the 90 degree off axis response of a cardioid is only 6 dB down from the on axis response.

This is great insight thanks.

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

The most critical thing here is placement. Mounting the H2n on the camera defeats the purpose of using an parallel recording workflow, so position the H2n much closer to the source than the camera position.

I agree I would do this whenever possible.

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

Not sure how you plan to do this, but if you're taking a line out from an amp or pa mixer beware the low headroom. You may need an output with a level control or an external attenuator to avoid clipping the H2n.

Not sure if I'll do this yet but thought I might try using a clamp on flex arm mount and set the mic just to capture the guitar. Then sync it and mix in with direct feed captured from the desk. Possibly I could provide a feed out to the desk if the sound guy wanted to mix some in but that's not really what I was thinking.

The idea being in video I could provide playback of the guitar with some stereo and acoustic mic elements. Mix that with direct recording from the desk and use onboard camera mic and iPhone recordings for room sense and ambiance.

Otherwise I could just use the mic to capture sound out front and sync that. It's sure got to beat my onboard camera mic.

I'm still toying with ideas of how to improve my live recordings for video.

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

Basically never use any of the signal processing during recording. Set conservative levels and do all adjustments in post.

Sheesh I should have known that.

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

I've never come up with any tricks. Not a fan of Zoom MS. Fran

Thanks for the insight. TBH when I first became interested in MS I bought a very nice ribbon and LDC mikes to do the job. But I have not played with it much and I have such a small space to work in. Likely I'll use that set up when doing my audio only recording and the zoom seems like it will be a great fit for video getting ideas down and likely developing my tracking and recording skills.

I'm not sure how to deal with the zoom MS file. I have it set to RAW and hopefully I find out my Aura pro can deal with MS. I have not looked that far into it yet.

Also I plan to use a Sandisk Ultra 16GB SDHC card class 10 UH-1. Hopefully that's a good enough budget friendly card that'll be fast for transfer.


Thanks for all the advice.

[Steev]

48kHz is more than good enough. You won't hear a difference, unless you are a bat.

[Fran Guidry]

Well I'm embarrassed to say I can't find the article that addressed the file format issue vs signal to noise ratio. Using 24 bit can't hurt, although you'd need to convert to burn an audio CD for instance.

High sample rates - sorry, I've never been convinced that there's an audible difference due to sample rates. The debate has raged forever but actual samples that demonstrate an audible difference are something I've ever found.

There was once a time when sample rate conversion was a problem so the rule was to record 48 khz for video, but every audio and video tool I'm using these days can deal with whatever sample rate I feed into them. So I generally record 44.1/16.

The solution I found that reduced the self-noise when using MS was to reduce the level of the side mic(s). Of course, that gets closer to mono, and in fact I had to go all the way to mono - no side mic at all - bring the self-noise to the same level as an XY recording. You should do your own tests, though. Noise is a complicated issue, depends on source material, recording environment, playback level, and more.

Originally Posted by Mischief

...
Not sure if I'll do this yet but thought I might try using a clamp on flex arm mount and set the mic just to capture the guitar. Then sync it and mix in with direct feed captured from the desk. Possibly I could provide a feed out to the desk if the sound guy wanted to mix some in but that's not really what I was thinking.

The idea being in video I could provide playback of the guitar with some stereo and acoustic mic elements. Mix that with direct recording from the desk and use onboard camera mic and iPhone recordings for room sense and ambiance.

Otherwise I could just use the mic to capture sound out front and sync that. It's sure got to beat my onboard camera mic.

I'm still toying with ideas of how to improve my live recordings for video.
...

I'm not tracking your concept very well, but that's OK. If you're playing solo acoustic without monitors, you can certainly place the H2n to capture the audio. Stage monitors will complicate things a bit. I've mixed in some camera audio when I use a PA mixer to feed my recorder, but when I've used a recorder for an acoustic capture I've had all the ambience I need.

Originally Posted by Mischief

...
Also I plan to use a Sandisk Ultra 16GB SDHC card class 10 UH-1. Hopefully that's a good enough budget friendly card that'll be fast for transfer. ...

Just be sure to keep the SD card that shipped with the H2n. You'll need it if you ever have occasion to install a software update.

Fran

[Mischief]

Oh thanks for that Fran

I didn't realize I need to keep that other memory card around.

Yes my idea for recording would be doing solo although there is monitors so maybe that won't work so well.

As far as the sample rate debate. What is the con of recoding higher sample rates besides using more memory? If there's no real noticeable improvement but it is just as easy to work with them why not just use it? I may have to do some research in that.


I think for my first time recording live I may just play it safe and record the room and sync with the camera. Possibly record a multitrack with an interface and laptop then play with mixing it all.

I'm learning lots here.

I do know I need some sort of attenuation to use this recorder to record from the desk. Seems like a waste of a standalone unit though to use it for that.

Is there a 4 channel battery operated recorder that can take hi Z, line and mic inputs?

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Mischief

...

As far as the sample rate debate. What is the con of recoding higher sample rates besides using more memory? If there's no real noticeable improvement but it is just as easy to work with them why not just use it? I may have to do some research in that.

The "just as easy" part depends on what you're doing and how you're doing it. If you have sufficient horsepower and throughput and/or do minimal post there's no issue, if you hit a snag you can change your approach. Your card will fill up faster but 16GB will hold a lot of audio even at 96 khz.

My question would be, if there's no audible difference what's the benefit?

...
I do know I need some sort of attenuation to use this recorder to record from the desk. Seems like a waste of a standalone unit though to use it for that.

Sorry, I don't follow. How else would you record from the desk?

Is there a 4 channel battery operated recorder that can take hi Z, line and mic inputs?

The Zoom H6 is one such. Zoom added built-in 20dB pads on each input and there are four XLR/TRS combo jacks for low impedance mics, high impedance sources, and line level ins. Along with that you have XY and MS mic modules standard and a number of other modules as optional accessories.

Fran

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Mischief

As far as the sample rate debate. What is the con of recoding higher sample rates besides using more memory? If there's no real noticeable improvement but it is just as easy to work with them why not just use it? I may have to do some research in that.

There is no "con" per se, other than larger file size, which as you note with today's computers and memory is much less of an issue than even 5 years ago.


Also understand "no real noticeable difference " is not actually an established fact . It is a subjective anecdotal statement . There are in fact numbers of very qualified engineers who's anecdotal experience causes them to record and mix at 24 -96k. The reality is there are far far too many variables at play to make any kind of categorical statements either pro or con. Best to try it for yourself, on your gear, in your room, with your ears ..........

For your research effort and as general interest, here is an interesting read on this subject.

http://www.keyboardmag.com/how-to/12...at-96khz/48364

[rick-slo]

I usually record at 24/88,200 although 16/44,100 is probably fine (and the file sizes are a lot smaller), especially if you are careful about overs and you do not manipulate post recording very much (reverb, compression, equalization, etc.) with less than very good software. I would not record at 48,000 if you are going to end up reducing to 44,100 post recording anyway (more rounding errors in that process).

[Mischief]

Okay now what I'm trying to figure out is how I can

1. Import a file from the zoom into my iPad.

I have tried recording direct using it as an interface but it only does the file in single track stereo. So I would rather record separate then import.

2. How do I get a MS file I can post manipulate? I have it set to RAW but when I import it (so far I've only imported to computer) I just get a single stereo track. I want separate control of my M and S mic. I know there's the VST plug in but seems it only works with Cubass and I want to use my Auria pro or GB on my iPad.

I'm trying to get a work flow that is all on my iPad.

My plan is; Record AV separate, mix audio then sync to video and releasing to YouTube all via my iPad.

I have an apple powered camera kit for the iPad already.

Any thoughts?

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Mischief

Okay now what I'm trying to figure out is how I can

1. Import a file from the zoom into my iPad.

I have tried recording direct using it as an interface but it only does the file in single track stereo. So I would rather record separate then import.

2. How do I get a MS file I can post manipulate? I have it set to RAW but when I import it (so far I've only imported to computer) I just get a single stereo track. I want separate control of my M and S mic. I know there's the VST plug in but seems it only works with Cubass and I want to use my Auria pro or GB on my iPad.

I'm trying to get a work flow that is all on my iPad.

My plan is; Record AV separate, mix audio then sync to video and releasing to YouTube all via my iPad.

I have an apple powered camera kit for the iPad already.

Any thoughts?

Unfortunately I don't know about the Zoom and whether you can record to two mono or only one stereo. If not however major DAWs usually have the option to separate a stereo track into two mono tracks that can then be processed or edited separately . I do not know about GB or Auria, perhaps someone here knows, or there may be support of user forums for those DAWs that you might ask.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Mischief

Okay now what I'm trying to figure out is how I can

1. Import a file from the zoom into my iPad.

I have tried recording direct using it as an interface but it only does the file in single track stereo. So I would rather record separate then import.

2. How do I get a MS file I can post manipulate? I have it set to RAW but when I import it (so far I've only imported to computer) I just get a single stereo track. I want separate control of my M and S mic. I know there's the VST plug in but seems it only works with Cubass and I want to use my Auria pro or GB on my iPad.

I'm trying to get a work flow that is all on my iPad.

My plan is; Record AV separate, mix audio then sync to video and releasing to YouTube all via my iPad.

I have an apple powered camera kit for the iPad already.

Any thoughts?

I did a Google search for "Auria mid side" and got some hits. A search for "ipad garageband mid side" turned up some IOS Audiobus plugins for mid-side processing.

It's normal to process MS by manipulating a stereo file with a plugin. The use of separate tracks is only needed if you're doing a "manual" mid-side manipulation by inverting and summing tracks. A plugin will handle this for you while (hopefully) still allowing any adjustment you want to make.

Fran

[Mischief]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

I did a Google search for "Auria mid side" and got some hits. A search for "ipad garageband mid side" turned up some IOS Audiobus plugins for mid-side processing.



It's normal to process MS by manipulating a stereo file with a plugin. The use of separate tracks is only needed if you're doing a "manual" mid-side manipulation by inverting and summing tracks. A plugin will handle this for you while (hopefully) still allowing any adjustment you want to make.



Fran

Okay thanks for this.
I checked for a plug in before but didn't find anything regarding Auria pro or GB specifically.

I do know that Auria can handle third party plugins, so I'll try that. I've downloaded Shure motive but that only handles prerecorded. So I also got another free app I'll see if it works.

I would still like to manually work with the signal if the plugins don't work well on the iPad.

So if I understand correctly the RAW file and or stereo track of a MS can be converted into 2 mono tracks, is that all I need to manually decode and manipulate the Side track? I thought it would just separate them into mono left and right and not strip it back to mono mid and side?

I also still have to figure out how to get a prerecorded wav raw file [or MS stereo] from my H2n into my iPad (ideally without going through a computer as that defeats the purpose).

The last question I'm wondering is since the H2n actually uses two back to back capsules for the figure eight pattern does it get treated differently then a single figure eight recording? Is there a different workflow for dealing with that signal vs a regular eight (assuming I'm not using a plug in)?

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Mischief

Okay thanks for this.
I checked for a plug in before but didn't find anything regarding Auria pro or GB specifically.

The Audiobus capability I referred to above apparently connect to GarageBand.

I do know that Auria can handle third party plugins, so I'll try that. I've downloaded Shure motive but that only handles prerecorded. So I also got another free app I'll see if it works.

I would still like to manually work with the signal if the plugins don't work well on the iPad.

It appears that Auria has a lot of mixing and routing power. If you can pan your stereo track completely to one side you should be able to isolate the mid and side channels.

So if I understand correctly the RAW file and or stereo track of a MS can be converted into 2 mono tracks, is that all I need to manually decode and manipulate the Side track? I thought it would just separate them into mono left and right and not strip it back to mono mid and side?

In a conventional mid-side stereo track, which is what the Zoom Raw file is, one side is the mid, the other is the side. Conventionally the left channel is mid, right channel is side, although this is not set in stone. We call this format "mid side encoded" because it must be processed - decoded - to give left-right stereo.

I also still have to figure out how to get a prerecorded wav raw file [or MS stereo] from my H2n into my iPad (ideally without going through a computer as that defeats the purpose).

I wish you luck with this. I haven't done it and I'm not finding a workflow when I do a little searching. In fact, it seems that even direct recording requires a powered USB hub to connect the H2n to the iPad.

The last question I'm wondering is since the H2n actually uses two back to back capsules for the figure eight pattern does it get treated differently then a single figure eight recording? Is there a different workflow for dealing with that signal vs a regular eight (assuming I'm not using a plug in)?

The back-to-back cardioids are combined internally into a virtual bidirectional mic. There's no special workflow required or desired.

Fran