Gibson J-45 - Low E string intonation off?

[yell03]

I ordered my Gibson J-45 with cutaway on 1/28th and received it soon after.

The tone is amazing.

Here is where it gets complicated....

The playability even with the shorter 24.75" scale is more of a chore than my Martin with a 25.5" scale which plays like a dream.

I had both guitars strung with Elixir PB 12-53s.

So, I changed both guitars to Ernie Ball PB 11-52s.

The Martin plays pretty much the same as it did with 12s and while the Gibson improved, it is still not as good as the Martin.

I checked the action at the 12th fret and the Martin is 2.75, the Gibson is 3.25, maybe even a bit higher.

I took it to a local guitar tech and he thought it was fine and said not to bother with it until i am sure I want it lower as the tone is so good and there is no buzzing.

Today I was playing it quite a bit and I notice the low E string intonation gets way sharp as I get farther down the fretboard.

It gets really bad past the 14th fret and it almost sounds like it has some dead frets even with the high action. The last fret action is over the 3.5mm mark and my gauge does not go higher.

The A string is fine as are all the others.

I think I am going to have another tech take a look at it.

A $2000 plus guitar should not only sound great, but it should play at least as good as my $999 Martin.

This is my 3rd Gibson acoustic I have bought, two I had to return for defects.
Hopefully this one is an easy fix.

If I could only keep one acoustic I would choose the Martin.
It arrived perfect and still is perfect.

[ChalkLitIScream]

You should lower the action to atleast the same level as your Martin. 3.25mm is mighty high (for me). Then you can compare it's playability to the Martin and see whats going on.

To see if there are any intonation issues, capo the 1st fret, then compare the 13th fretted note to the harmonic on the 13th fret. It should be the same.

If the fretted note is sharp in comparison, the point at which the string contacts the saddle must be pushed back toward the bridge pins, increasing string length. If the fretted note is flat, you most likely will need to make a new saddle as there wont be room to bring the contact points closer to make the string length shorter.

Unless you are comfortable with the high action, I would bring the action down first, and then check its intonation. (if you get no buzz with the Martin, then you can safely bring the Gibson to the same string height)

[PiousDevil]

Those strings are really light, certainly not what the guitar is set up for. Put a heavier gauge set back on and check your intonation, even if it doesn’t play comfortably. If intonation is good, then you know it’s just string choice/setup. Experiment with string gauges and alloys, maybe try something in a heavier gauge in an alloy that provides lower tension, like a monel or titanium string? Whatever string you land on, get it set up properly for that string set.

Originally Posted by yell03

I ordered my Gibson J-45 with cutaway on 1/28th and received it soon after.


The playability even with the shorter 24.75" scale is more of a chore than my Martin with a 25.5" scale which plays like a dream.

I had both guitars strung with Elixir PB 12-53s.

So, I changed both guitars to Ernie Ball PB 11-52s.

The Martin plays pretty much the same as it did with 12s and while the Gibson improved, it is still not as good as the Martin.

I checked the action at the 12th fret and the Martin is 2.75, the Gibson is 3.25, maybe even a bit higher.

I think you're going sharp because the action is too high. You're tuned to pitch with the string static, but you have to press it down too far to fret it for the note, stretching the string with too much tension, thus going sharp. This is more noticeable as you get closer to the saddle because the string is shorter and there's further to go, doubly compounding the problem, which is exactly what you are describing.

Lower the action to 3mm - 2mm and switch back to 12s. A short scale guitar will have more trouble with 11s unless the setup is perfect, because the tension is so low. If we can switch to English units for a moment, you should consider putting the action at the 12th to 6/64ths and 4/64ths. You can actually afford a bit less if you like low action. I've often gotten away with 5/64ths and 3.5/64ths without any noticeable loss of volume or tone. Each guitar is different though so I'd start with 6 and 4/64ths. I'll bet your intonation problems disappear, especially if you switch back to 12s.

Don't blame the manufacturer, they always send these guitars out with high action because it's easier to lower action than to raise it. They expect the new owner to adjust as needed.

Have you checked your neck relief? You need to make sure you don't have excessive bow in the neck.

[Jim Owen]

I agree with Rat—I think that fretting your E is causing it to go sharp. The string gauge seems light—I use 12s on my J 50.

A bad string can also be a culprit of some intonation flubs. I once thought I was in for a new compensated saddle for my Martin. I’m glad I changed the offending string before I took it to my tech (‘twould have been embarrassing).

[yell03]

Originally Posted by ChalkLitIScream

You should lower the action to atleast the same level as your Martin. 3.25mm is mighty high (for me). Then you can compare it's playability to the Martin and see whats going on.

To see if there are any intonation issues, capo the 1st fret, then compare the 13th fretted note to the harmonic on the 13th fret. It should be the same.

If the fretted note is sharp in comparison, the point at which the string contacts the saddle must be pushed back toward the bridge pins, increasing string length. If the fretted note is flat, you most likely will need to make a new saddle as there wont be room to bring the contact points closer to make the string length shorter.

Unless you are comfortable with the high action, I would bring the action down first, and then check its intonation. (if you get no buzz with the Martin, then you can safely bring the Gibson to the same string height)

Definitely have to bring the action down.
I can play Barre chords comfortable down to the 5th fret, after that it is not so comfortable.

Originally Posted by PiousDevil

Those strings are really light, certainly not what the guitar is set up for. Put a heavier gauge set back on and check your intonation, even if it doesn’t play comfortably. If intonation is good, then you know it’s just string choice/setup. Experiment with string gauges and alloys, maybe try something in a heavier gauge in an alloy that provides lower tension, like a monel or titanium string? Whatever string you land on, get it set up properly for that string set.

The guitar was worse with the 12g strings.
I will bring it to a good guitar tech and I will bring him both a set of Ernie Ball 11s and Elixir 12s, if he can't get it right with the 11s I will have hom do the 12s.

Originally Posted by Frozen Rat

I think you're going sharp because the action is too high. You're tuned to pitch with the string static, but you have to press it down too far to fret it for the note, stretching the string with too much tension, thus going sharp. This is more noticeable as you get closer to the saddle because the string is shorter and there's further to go, doubly compounding the problem, which is exactly what you are describing.

Lower the action to 3mm - 2mm and switch back to 12s. A short scale guitar will have more trouble with 11s unless the setup is perfect, because the tension is so low. If we can switch to English units for a moment, you should consider putting the action at the 12th to 6/64ths and 4/64ths. You can actually afford a bit less if you like low action. I've often gotten away with 5/64ths and 3.5/64ths without any noticeable loss of volume or tone. Each guitar is different though so I'd start with 6 and 4/64ths. I'll bet your intonation problems disappear, especially if you switch back to 12s.

Don't blame the manufacturer, they always send these guitars out with high action because it's easier to lower action than to raise it. They expect the new owner to adjust as needed.

Have you checked your neck relief? You need to make sure you don't have excessive bow in the neck.

I will definitely take it for a set-up, if the tech can't get it right with the 11ss I will have him go back to 12s.

Originally Posted by Jim Owen

I agree with Rat—I think that fretting your E is causing it to go sharp. The string gauge seems light—I use 12s on my J 50.

A bad string can also be a culprit of some intonation flubs. I once thought I was in for a new compensated saddle for my Martin. I’m glad I changed the offending string before I took it to my tech (‘twould have been embarrassing).

I think the string is OK, it sounds great everywhere else.
Plus the high action is not my style, might as well have it set up the way I like.

I have the same gauge strings on my Martin and my Rogue, they sound and play well.
I did play the guitar for a while, strumming mostly, lots of open chords and Barre chords, guitar sounds great.
Definitely want it set up to my liking.

[saxlylong]

I had the same issue with my 2017 J-45 standard. I had Bob Colosi send me a bone saddle with the additional compensation on the E-A-D strings, which helped bring the pitch down. I also picked up a TUSQ saddle with the same compensation so I could A/B between the two (TUSQ PQ-9280-C0). I run 13's with 7/64-5/64 string height.

[TBman]

I've must have gotten lucky with my J-45 or I'm just too dumb to notice any intonation issues.

Maybe you should get the J-45 setup the way you like it and try 12s on it again.

Originally Posted by yell03

It gets really bad past the 14th fret

Each string should be intonated all the way up of course, but I can't recall ever playing my low E string at or above the 14th fret.

Originally Posted by yell03

A $2000 plus guitar should not only sound great, but it should play at least as good as my $999 Martin.

"Good" is subjective. Every guitar plays and feels differently. Lots of factors go into playability, including nut slot depth, saddle height, fret height, neck carve, and fretboard radius. The notion that a brand-new guitar should somehow arrive magically set-up for the purchaser and that all of these factors should align with his preferences just because of its price seems a little wishful.

Originally Posted by yell03

I think I am going to have another tech take a look at it.

Probably a good idea.

[Groberts]

I’ve noticed the same intonation issues on a few Gibson’s. Its like you have to de-tune the low e string a little to make it play in tune. The action was not too high on a Hummingbird Vintage that I had briefly and on a 2017 J-45 that I demo’d at home for a few days.

I also don’t get along the with the Gibson nut width. I think its a bit narrower than 1 3/4”. tons of players get along fine with Gibby J-45’s and the tone and woody organic voice is hard to dismiss. Works great for singers. In the end, I have learned I am not a Gibson player at heart. I am a Martin lover through and through.

Originally Posted by Groberts

I’ve noticed the same intonation issues on a few Gibson’s. Its like you have to de-tune the low e string a little to make it play in tune.

That's usually a matter of saddle height and shape, both easily remedied. I've only played one guitar in my life that didn't need some set-up work out of the box. On new Martins, the action is always higher than optimum for me, which is a good thing -- you can easily sand a saddle lower, but you can't sand it higher!

Originally Posted by Groberts

I also don’t get along the with the Gibson nut width. I think its a bit narrower than 1 3/4”.

Yep. It's 1.72" instead of 1.75".

[tippy5]

I can't stand techs that have no enthusiasm to get it perfect.

[SalFromChatham]

Please... take the guitar to a real deal tech. No GC techs. Guitars needs a setup. Almost every guitar I bought, new or used, had higher action than I like. I just had a new to me 99Hummingbird set up.... gigged Friday night with it for over four hours. Low action. Buttery feel.

I gave up on fixing the action on my guitars myself. Having it done right makes the difference between a guitar being “nice” versus “the one you reach for”.

Having it done right means the setup will perfectly marry nut slot height, saddle height, and relief in the neck.

[yell03]

Originally Posted by saxlylong

I had the same issue with my 2017 J-45 standard. I had Bob Colosi send me a bone saddle with the additional compensation on the E-A-D strings, which helped bring the pitch down. I also picked up a TUSQ saddle with the same compensation so I could A/B between the two (TUSQ PQ-9280-C0). I run 13's with 7/64-5/64 string height.

As long as it is fixable no problem, thanks for that info.

Originally Posted by TBman

I've must have gotten lucky with my J-45 or I'm just too dumb to notice any intonation issues.

Maybe you should get the J-45 setup the way you like it and try 12s on it again.

If they can set it up with 11s I will be happier, if not I will switch both guitars back to 12s.

[yell03]

Originally Posted by Willie Voltaire

Each string should be intonated all the way up of course, but I can't recall ever playing my low E string at or above the 14th fret.



"Good" is subjective. Every guitar plays and feels differently. Lots of factors go into playability, including nut slot depth, saddle height, fret height, neck carve, and fretboard radius. The notion that a brand-new guitar should somehow arrive magically set-up for the purchaser and that all of these factors should align with his preferences just because of its price seems a little wishful.



Probably a good idea.

I rarely play the low e or a below the 14th, so it is not a major issue, bit still something I want fixed.

I hear what you are saying, but I would think a guitar would be have good intonation before leaving the factory.

I think having my regular tech (he was off this weekend) look at it will be a good idea.