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  #31  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:02 PM
David Rock David Rock is offline
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Hello all:

Interesting posts as usual...I have thought on this a while now. I agree with Derek that once we put a time value to notes, it has rhythm. It may not have groove and I agree that a groove or hook can exist without a melody associated with it and that melody may or may not have groove. (How many ways can I agree?)

Here is a link to Kevin Callahan's YT of a song he wrote for Badi Assad called Leito do Rio, song for Badi (the riverbank).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmfoKgmwM4g

Mr Callahan is a well respected composer for guitar that has written with and for the likes of all of the Assads. Little did I know how "unlike" Badi's rhythmic style this song was...

The reason I post this is that, it is the (literally) first song I learned about 20 years ago. Why? Ugh, to be honest it was the first song of the first "Fingerstyle Guitar" magazine I picked up (remember that mag?). I thought, "No problem man, not too many notes, gotta be cool, how hard could it be!". Little did I know, twenty years down the road I would still be working so hard to get this one right...

Point -- This is an example of call and response...melody, yes with rhythm, but not groove. I am not trying in any way to insinuate that anything I play or write is anything like this (oh, but if it were!).

But maybe I would call this more like "conversation" without words, maybe. I believe we are all trying to communicate something -- with or without words. So, I am thinking more about phrases as if talking. That is how I approach each section of the stuff I write. What I write is structured and defined (although I do improvise) but not necessarily easy to follow. I am always looking for a surprise or twist to catch the listener's ear.

What are some thoughts on proper "phrasing" of a melody.

BTW, Now that I am no longer nomading around on a boat, I will be looking for a teacher in the San Antonio area. Any suggestions for a barely adequate beginning level intermediate with advanced rhythm issues in this area?

Best to all,
D
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  #32  
Old 11-16-2017, 04:17 PM
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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First, thank you for sharing David. It takes a ton of courage to put yourself out there. I find your melodies inspired, but it isn't "groove" that's lacking, it's musicality.

In all of Western music and much or Eastern music as well there is always some sort of meter involved. I say meter rather than rhythm because meter allows the artistry that I believe you're going after, but with something of a stable element involved. Typically most music that I've played has had some sort of "pulse", whether it be 8th notes, 16th notes (never had a base faster than 16ths) which help establish a "motor" for all the parts of the music to follow, even if there is some rubato (or artistic pulse variation). Your recordings, David, seem to lack any kind of rhythmic congruity and frankly make the work difficult to listen to. I play multi-meter stuff all the time, but have only played music with no rhythmic pulse at all only on occasion for a brief special effect. While I would call your melodies somewhat captivating, I'd describe your lack of any rhythmic pulse as "untidy" at best and difficult to listen to.

So as far as answering the question (paraphrased) "should I focus on melody or the groove" I think the weak link in your creations is establishing pulse, even if in multi-meter format which is an element to now blend into your melodic creations. JMO
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  #33  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:54 PM
David Rock David Rock is offline
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Vindibona1

Thanks for your frank assessment of my playing. I think you are spot on and I have alluded to that in prior posts. I believe you nailed what my next work should be focused on...Musicality. Ouch.

I don't know how to proceed, but now I know what to proceed to or for.

It seems to me that musicality is something that can only be achieved through interaction with other more experienced musicians. And, I have none of that. Therein is lies one the hazards of being "self trained" -- no constructive feedback.

I am on the hunt for Zen. A never ending path.

Regards
D

P.S. As far as the risk of "sharing", yes it is a risk, but how do we get better without first the risk? Ouch.
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  #34  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:57 PM
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David, I think your note timing is OK, but you are randomly changing the meter in the stuff you write, sometimes 4/4, in and out of 5/4, etc..
That makes it hard to follow. Count out the beats per measure (or the short phrases if you prefer) to make sure you are not randomly adding
of subtracting notes to the meter. You can change meter to good effect within a tune but not when done just randomly.
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  #35  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:25 PM
Todd Tipton Todd Tipton is offline
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Some great replies already. Melody or rhythm? I suppose it is how you interpret the question. Let's say you are performing a style of music that has a good groove; this can be numerous styles. In a performance situation and being practical: the rhythm is more important than the melody. They gotta keep dancing.
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  #36  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:51 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
David, I think your note timing is OK, but you are randomly changing the meter in the stuff you write, sometimes 4/4, in and out of 5/4, etc..
That makes it hard to follow. Count out the beats per measure (or the short phrases if you prefer) to make sure you are not randomly adding
of subtracting notes to the meter. You can change meter to good effect within a tune but not when done just randomly.
There is no law or reason that music must adhere to strict or consistent meter. What appears random does not preclude intent on the player/composers part. I believe one term for this is rubato. Then there are polyrhythms and "free time".

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Originally Posted by Todd Tipton View Post
I suppose it is how you interpret the question. Let's say you are performing a style of music that has a good groove; this can be numerous styles. In a performance situation and being practical: the rhythm is more important than the melody. They gotta keep dancing.
This is simply recursion. There are more possibilities...such as wind chimes, birds and some aquatic mammals.

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Originally Posted by David Rock View Post

I am on the hunt for Zen. A never ending path.
Zen is a recipriversexcluson, defined by Douglas Adams as "something defined as being anything other than itself". There is no path. There is only now
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Last edited by Wyllys; 11-17-2017 at 12:20 AM.
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  #37  
Old 11-17-2017, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
There is no law or reason that music must adhere to strict or consistent meter. What appears random does not preclude intent on the player/composers part. I believe one term for this is rubato.
That's great. Not what I was talking about anyway.
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  #38  
Old 11-17-2017, 04:39 PM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rock View Post
I was a little curious and always have been...I know this is a loaded question but do not mean it that way.

Preface with -- I was at Greek restaurant yesterday they were streaming some pretty cool music...it reminded me of Ottmar Liebert kind of stuff. So I looked up O.L. youtube. I pulled up Barcelona Nights and some other Rhumba examples. Now I am not a Rhumba or Flamenco kinda guy, but it was cool and interesting. (Sorry, but I cannot get my right hand that loose. I am sure it would just fall off!)

Which is more important 'groove' or melody?

I have always been chasing melody but maybe groove calls for more attention to the art? So much 'new age' is in my opinion focused on groove.

Groove or melody?

Here is an example of my chase for melody:



Thanks for the input
D
Extra beats are cool if they have a purpose. No problem changing meters or even feels, but it has to be organized or the listener feels it as being "off". I like your compositional ideas. I think it's a great start. Good articulations etc.

What I hear more happening, in terms of the rhythm, is mixing a couple of different feels and losing a beat here and there in the process, from not really knowing where things are supposed to be.

The first 20 seconds are very clearly a single unified style, even though it's rubato. (That's the thing, really rhythm doesn't have to be in metronomic time to make sense). Then, after that first bit, it really sounds like it's trying to be in a triple meter, like 6/8 or 12/8 (Celtic?), but you're somewhat having trouble counting it, and as result, are dropping one of the eights three and there and kind of melding a straight-eighths feel with some of it.

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. Triple meters are the hardest bits for self taught, modern players, as it's not really in popular music as much anymore. It's not as much of a problem when learning from tab or by ear, but when you're writing your own, you have to have more of this counting stuff together to pull it off. None of that is impossible or overly difficult necessarily, but it requires a certain amount of study /practice.

A couple of beginning questions might get you started thinking in a different direction: can you play a simple basic melody in this style - like a children's song - with some basic 8th note subdivisions between your quarter notes? Then.... can you do the same with sixteenths, eighth note triplets, quarter note triplets etc? Can you take a basic tune and play a 12/8 or 6/8 version?

Some of this work needs to be done with simple, straight ahead tunes like that if you've never done it. Then you'll have a better idea of how to apply it to your own music as well, even with more modern syncopation etc.

Anyway, I like your playing and ideas. The kind of questions you're asking in this thread are the kind that will make you a better musician. Congrats.

Last edited by mattbn73; 11-17-2017 at 06:17 PM.
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  #39  
Old 11-18-2017, 04:31 PM
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
David, I think your note timing is OK, but you are randomly changing the meter in the stuff you write
I'm sorry, but I would disagree. I think it is the reverse. His timing is making it impossible to determine any meter at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
There is no law or reason that music must adhere to strict or consistent meter. What appears random does not preclude intent on the player/composers part. I believe one term for this is rubato. Then there are polyrhythms and "free time".
While I acknowledge the existence of polyrhythms, mixing polyrhythms with rubato is like mixing oil and sand. All you get is mud. While rubato is an important form of musical expression, it is a diversion from straight metered rhythm, not an avoidance of it. In fact, rubato, no matter which rhythm you're playing in, it must first be definable to have any worthy artistic interpretation.

A good example of an artistic polyrhythm coupled with rubato that comes to mind is in Percey Grainger's "Linconlshire Posey". Go to 9:50 in the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzTpJNLq-b4
While wildly written in multi-meter form and open to interpretation of tempo, it still has definition. [/QUOTE]


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rock View Post
Vindibona1

Thanks for your frank assessment of my playing. I think you are spot on and I have alluded to that in prior posts. I believe you nailed what my next work should be focused on...Musicality. Ouch.

I don't know how to proceed, but now I know what to proceed to or for.

It seems to me that musicality is something that can only be achieved through interaction with other more experienced musicians. And, I have none of that. Therein is lies one the hazards of being "self trained" -- no constructive feedback.

I am on the hunt for Zen. A never ending path.
Well... First before you can break rules you have to know the rules. I love your melodic creations. So were it me, I'd start by trying to find definable rhythms in your melodies. You're very close to achiving that already. It's just that the timing meanders far too much. Once you get to that point, then you can slow or speed up within those melodies to achieve the artistry you're trying to attain. Also, don't forget what a lot of contemporary song writers forget; that we can create additional impact with variations of volume level and creating and shaping of phrases.

Yeah, being self taught has it's pitfalls, but you seem to have done ok so far. Good luck.
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Last edited by vindibona1; 11-18-2017 at 04:50 PM.
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  #40  
Old 11-18-2017, 05:29 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Originally Posted by Wyllys
There is no law or reason that music must adhere to strict or consistent meter. What appears random does not preclude intent on the player/composers part. I believe one term for this is rubato. Then there are polyrhythms and "free time".


While I acknowledge the existence of polyrhythms, mixing polyrhythms with rubato is like mixing oil and sand. All you get is mud. While rubato is an important form of musical expression, it is a diversion from straight metered rhythm, not an avoidance of it. In fact, rubato, no matter which rhythm you're playing in, it must first be definable to have any worthy artistic interpretation.


You highlighted rubato and polyrhythms but left off "free time". Acknowledged musical pioneers such as John Coltrane, Archie Shepp, Ornett Coleman and Frank Zappa moved into "meter-free" endeavors.
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  #41  
Old 11-18-2017, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
I'm sorry, but I would disagree. I think it is the reverse. His timing is making it impossible to determine any meter at all.
The opposite IMO. I guess if the OP posted a recording of a song by someone else (learned via tab or score to be sure notes are correct) we could better judge his timing potential. Right now I think it is more of a lack of counting out the meters although it can be a combination of things.
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Last edited by rick-slo; 11-18-2017 at 06:28 PM.
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  #42  
Old 11-18-2017, 09:23 PM
David Rock David Rock is offline
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Default My vote?

Well, I didn't mean to "start" something with this post, but...

It is a combination of things.

I have gone back to the recording of "After The Wind" and listened to myself really hard...ouch (again). O.K. from a purely critical listening perspective this is not as difficult for me to listen to as it is for [all] others because I can hear it in my mind as it should sound. But our minds can deceive us (or at least me).

My timing is on and off throughout this song. I know what I was trying to play so I hear it "correct" even though it is not "correct". Ouch again for that realization.

I had this piece written out in tab and have gotten it back out to work on the phrasing. This should be a snappy, toe tapping, groovy, melodic song, but although the skeleton for that is there, it falls short. I can work with that failure. Just know I am working on this!

It should fall into a 4/4 time signature...but I believe I am going to ferret out - 1. some poorly done triplets, and 2. some pick up notes (again poorly done). Does it change meter? Maybe, time will tell...I think the pick up notes could suggest a change of meter in a phrase, but I don't think I 'randomly' change meter, just inadvertently change tempo.

Definitely a drummer is on my Christmas list! Unfortunately I chose to do "solo guitar". If I would have know how difficult to put all the pieces together on that challenge I might have stuck to golf or some other more constructive pastime. Solo guitar is TOUGH! But I am working on it. It is the 'sound in my mind' I heard when I was young. Wow, where would I be if I wouldn't have waited till my mid 30s to start learning?

I never learned to tap my foot in time and have a difficult time counting past one.

Maybe after all this effort I will make one of those steps up to the next plateau...or run squarely into a wall. Ha!

Be well
D
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  #43  
Old 11-18-2017, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
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You can have rhythm without melody, but you cannot have melody without rhythm.
I was thinking the same thing.
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  #44  
Old 11-18-2017, 09:38 PM
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Tab your stuff out in a program that will tell you if you have measure by measure total note duration (meter) errors so you can correct
them (for example PowerTab (free, Windows only)). You are adding extra notes to a measure now and then ("The Gift" being the worst in
that regard). I would say your note to note timing is ok. You may be fumbling certain ornamentations but that is a technical issue more
than an internal clock issue.
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  #45  
Old 11-19-2017, 01:22 AM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rock View Post
I had this piece written out in tab and have gotten it back out to work on the phrasing. This should be a snappy, toe tapping, groovy, melodic song, but although the skeleton for that is there, it falls short. I can work with that failure. Just know I am working on this!
can you share the tab? Would be cool to be able to look at it for the discussion.
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