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Old 11-13-2017, 02:38 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Default Help with learning a complex piece..

Hi all

I am working on “Song for Stephen” by Antoine Dufour and am struggling particularly with one element (not that the rest is a walk in the park..)

It requires a rhythmic right hand thumb “slap” throughout the piece and I am finding it very difficult to maintain this in time while picking out the tune and also fretting correctly.

It is improving I think as I get more used to the left hand position and have to think about it less, but I wanted to know if any of you have found an effective way to speed up this learning process (or if it just came naturally to you)

My inclination was to focus on the left hand and get this to the stage where I don’t have to think about it, and then add in and polish the right hand and the slap - would you agree, or am I better off trying to build it all up together?

Slowing it right down does not solve the problem as I find myself slapping too often or too fast and out of time.

Any help or advice from those of you who have faced (and overcome) this problem would be much appreciated..
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  #2  
Old 11-13-2017, 09:06 AM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Quote:
My inclination was to focus on the left hand and get this to the stage where I don’t have to think about it, and then add in and polish the right hand and the slap - would you agree, or am I better off trying to build it all up together?

Slowing it right down does not solve the problem as I find myself slapping too often or too fast and out of time.

Any help or advice from those of you who have faced (and overcome) this problem would be much appreciated..
I think this is one of those techniques that falls into the "learning how to ride a bicycle" category.
Awkward at first, but once you get it, it'll become second nature very fast.
It's a very rhythmic and percussive thumb slap, and thus not really that intricate, rhythm wise. Pretty straight forward, and is repetitive.
My advice would be to isolate a passage in the song that you're most familar with, i.e. over a few measures, preferably a complete phrase, and just work on getting it down, using both hands.
Use a metronome, or a drum machine, to help you determine when each slap occurs. Work it up slowly until you "get it".
I'm sure that will come, assuming you are not just starting with guitar. But I imagine you're not, since the piece requires at least a good base of fluidity in both hands.
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Old 11-13-2017, 09:44 AM
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It is a rhythmic pattern that goes throughout the tune. Therefore work on the first measure or two, eventually up to the first phrase, until you have it. I would first learn solid those measures without the taps. Then over those measures add the taps when I have that down realizing that the taps come between the beats. Do it until you have that down - no point continuing further into the tune ahead of time.
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:04 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Default Thanks!

Thanks Andre and Derek - what you say makes sense...

No shortcuts on this one then, just keep chipping away at it.

The challenge is that the slaps are between notes and also on the notes so they are hard to place unless they come automatically as if by a drum machine.

I will keep at it...
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:15 PM
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I don't play that particular style but I do play some tunes played Travis style. When I have difficulty with the tempo I'll get the thumb work in my head first, then work in all the fretting hand changes. I'll start with the beginning measure fret positions and work from there. There's been a lot of times when I'll mute all the strings and get the right hand tempo first. Maybe this applies to your situation.
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Old 11-13-2017, 02:41 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
The challenge is that the slaps are between notes and also on the notes so they are hard to place unless they come automatically as if by a drum machine.

I will keep at it...
I'd encourage you to think the other way 'round and make the rhythmic pulse the canvas and the "notes" the paint...

Rick-slo is right on point.
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Old 11-13-2017, 02:46 PM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Default Interesting..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
I'd encourage you to think the other way 'round and make the rhythmic pulse the canvas and the "notes" the paint...

Rick-slo is right on point.
Thanks - interesting perspective. I am certainly constraining myself to the first few bars until I get this.

I do try to drive the piece off the back of the slaps / rhythm (which seem to fall on the 2/4 beats) but after the first 2 slaps with the addition of some melody and finger action, then the third slap has been missed or is too late and the whole piece falls apart - it’s an independence thing for sure and I need to be able to keep driving that rhythm on time regardless of what else is going on around it.
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  #8  
Old 11-13-2017, 09:52 PM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreF View Post
I think this is one of those techniques that falls into the "learning how to ride a bicycle" category.
Awkward at first, but once you get it, it'll become second nature very fast.
Yeah, this is the analogy I always use who are dealing with the frustrationyou get it, it'll become second nature very fast.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, this is exactly the analogy I use with students who are dealing with the frustration of feeling like there's no progress on something difficult like this. It's basically that they're wrestling with the "myth of gradual, linear progress". The thing is, most really important skills in life aren't developed that way. They are very often more like a series of mini breakthroughs.

When you're learning to ride a bike, you're basically at about 0% the moment before you get it, but once you get it, you're near 100% competency almost immediately. Many things are like that , in learning guitar. Once you experience a little bit of this personally, you kind of relax into it. Be patient. You may be on the verge of breakthrough. Very often it's all at once.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:46 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Default Very true...

This makes complete sense - I think that after 3h practice yesterday I was close to a mini breakthrough, but then my brain gave way and I started losing it. The really funny thing is that I then struggled to sleep last night as the music was on permanent repeat in my head all night long - I guess that this is a part of the learning process and a relatively small price to pay...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
Yeah, this is the analogy I always use who are dealing with the frustrationyou get it, it'll become second nature very fast.
Yeah, this is exactly the analogy I use with students who are dealing with the frustration of feeling like there's no progress on something difficult like this. It's basically that they're wrestling with the "myth of gradual, linear progress". The thing is, most really important skills in life aren't developed that way. They are very often more like a series of mini breakthroughs.

When you're learning to ride a bike, you're basically at about 0% the moment before you get it, but once you get it, you're near 100% competency almost immediately. Many things are like that , in learning guitar. Once you experience a little bit of this personally, you kind of relax into it. Be patient. You may be on the verge of breakthrough. Very often it's all at once.[/QUOTE]
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  #10  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:03 AM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Default Update

So I wanted to let you have an update - after about 3-4h practice the last few days I seem to have got the rhythmic slap down for the first section. I was hoping that I could now move onto the second section with slap and melody together (slap from the start as a continuation of the first section) but this is not even close to happening.

I am having to learn the left hand fingering and right hand picking first and in full before I can even begin to think about adding the slap and joining the two together.

Is it likely that after enough practice of this technique that I will be able to incorporate it into the beginning of learning a piece (like I would with traditional left and right hand technique) or will it always likely be added as a third piece (left hand / right hand picking / right hand rhythm)

Any of you using this type of rhythm that can chime in here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
Yeah, this is the analogy I always use who are dealing with the frustrationyou get it, it'll become second nature very fast.
Yeah, this is exactly the analogy I use with students who are dealing with the frustration of feeling like there's no progress on something difficult like this. It's basically that they're wrestling with the "myth of gradual, linear progress". The thing is, most really important skills in life aren't developed that way. They are very often more like a series of mini breakthroughs.

When you're learning to ride a bike, you're basically at about 0% the moment before you get it, but once you get it, you're near 100% competency almost immediately. Many things are like that , in learning guitar. Once you experience a little bit of this personally, you kind of relax into it. Be patient. You may be on the verge of breakthrough. Very often it's all at once.[/QUOTE]
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  #11  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:37 AM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Quote:
I am having to learn the left hand fingering and right hand picking first and in full before I can even begin to think about adding the slap and joining the two together.
One thing that is good to remember is that we all learn differently. What works for one may not be the right solution for the other.
The fundamental problem that I see with your approach above is that it segregates an essential element (the slap rhythm) from the music, when it should really be interwoven into the whole, just like any other part or series of notes.
I faced similar technical hurdles when I was learning compositions from Michael Hedges, which featured lots of muting, fret slapping, areas of songs where the responsibility for playing the melody seemingly shifted between right and left hands, and other quirky elements.
It's hard on the brain to get everything working together, but it's vital not to leave anything out as you learn it imo, because both hands need to move in sync and in rhythm, and that includes all the motion that may take the hands and fingers away from where they would normally be positioned. It's hard to explain, but I hope you understand my point.
In your case the slap requires the hand to move away from the strings, making the distance back toward the soundhole somewhat different than it would be if the hand remained positioned where it normally is. That requires a subtle adjustment, so that the rhythm (and music) doesn't suffer, and that needs to be "wired in" at the start (imo). It's not something that can be easily added in at a later stage, like an ingredient in a recipe.
The good thing is that the pattern repeats fairly uniformly.
Another thing that is helpful is how well the notation or TAB that you are following is written. How well are all the elements, slap included, spelled out musically? If done properly, it's just a matter of following "all the markings" .
I know, easier said than done.
Anyway, as I mentioned above, everyone is different. It's just my opinion that these particular types of technical challenges are more efficiently tackled together, rather than apart, however awkward it may seem at first.
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  #12  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:16 AM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
I am having to learn the left hand fingering and right hand picking first and in full before I can even begin to think about adding the slap and joining the two together.
That is what I suggested you do in an earlier thread. Tapping is the totally repetitive part. Not much to memorize there. However the fingerpicking part needs to be tackled first IMO.
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  #13  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:36 AM
fingerguy fingerguy is offline
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Not familiar with the piece but familiar with challenging pieces. I heard someone saying "You think, you stink" and I couldn't agree more.

So how I approach it? I focus 100% till I have the finger memory as well as the picking memory. No matter how long or complicated it can get, that is vital. Personally I found when I have to think through a piece it will sound like poopoo.

So when I have that I play it over and over again for days if not weeks. I play it slowly till one day I notice I am playing it faster/fast and correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrighty View Post
Hi all

I am working on “Song for Stephen” by Antoine Dufour and am struggling particularly with one element (not that the rest is a walk in the park..)

It requires a rhythmic right hand thumb “slap” throughout the piece and I am finding it very difficult to maintain this in time while picking out the tune and also fretting correctly.

It is improving I think as I get more used to the left hand position and have to think about it less, but I wanted to know if any of you have found an effective way to speed up this learning process (or if it just came naturally to you)

My inclination was to focus on the left hand and get this to the stage where I don’t have to think about it, and then add in and polish the right hand and the slap - would you agree, or am I better off trying to build it all up together?

Slowing it right down does not solve the problem as I find myself slapping too often or too fast and out of time.

Any help or advice from those of you who have faced (and overcome) this problem would be much appreciated..
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  #14  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:35 PM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Default Thanks Andre

Thanks Andre - this was concerning me. Like learning a piece without all the constituent parts..

However much as I might like to learn the whole things together it is just not possible I don’t think. Trying to do three things all together without really knowing any of them is overload - even if working very slowly.

On the other hand, as my level of proficiency with the melody and right hand (without slaps) has improved today, so I have been able to slowly add in some of the rhythm (or at least contemplate where it might go and how it might feel.

Initially adding in even just a few slaps threw my left hand completely and I found myself looking for and thinking of the next note too play and hence the piece falling apart.

Maybe there is a way to learn all the constituent parts together at the same time and build the piece this way, but I cannot conceive of how that might be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreF View Post
One thing that is good to remember is that we all learn differently. What works for one may not be the right solution for the other.
The fundamental problem that I see with your approach above is that it segregates an essential element (the slap rhythm) from the music, when it should really be interwoven into the whole, just like any other part or series of notes.
I faced similar technical hurdles when I was learning compositions from Michael Hedges, which featured lots of muting, fret slapping, areas of songs where the responsibility for playing the melody seemingly shifted between right and left hands, and other quirky elements.
It's hard on the brain to get everything working together, but it's vital not to leave anything out as you learn it imo, because both hands need to move in sync and in rhythm, and that includes all the motion that may take the hands and fingers away from where they would normally be positioned. It's hard to explain, but I hope you understand my point.
In your case the slap requires the hand to move away from the strings, making the distance back toward the soundhole somewhat different than it would be if the hand remained positioned where it normally is. That requires a subtle adjustment, so that the rhythm (and music) doesn't suffer, and that needs to be "wired in" at the start (imo). It's not something that can be easily added in at a later stage, like an ingredient in a recipe.
The good thing is that the pattern repeats fairly uniformly.
Another thing that is helpful is how well the notation or TAB that you are following is written. How well are all the elements, slap included, spelled out musically? If done properly, it's just a matter of following "all the markings" .
I know, easier said than done.
Anyway, as I mentioned above, everyone is different. It's just my opinion that these particular types of technical challenges are more efficiently tackled together, rather than apart, however awkward it may seem at first.
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  #15  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:36 PM
Wrighty Wrighty is offline
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Default You were right...

Based on current experience I think you are correct - at least for me this seems to be the only way to make progress...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
That is what I suggested you do in an earlier thread. Tapping is the totally repetitive part. Not much to memorize there. However the fingerpicking part needs to be tackled first IMO.
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