Question about improvising and scale options

[Dawsie]

Hi All,

I could use some feedback to make sure I'm on the right path.

I've been learning about modes and how they all relate/ parallel, etc. I'm currently learning to play the scales, learning the positions of the thirds, sixths, and tenths, and practicing them using drone backing tracks. Also, I'm learning all this in DADGAD (Thanks to Doug Young and others).

I recently bought The Big Book of Backing Tracks and it gives you different options for changing the scales over different chords. For example D Mix over the I chord, G Mix over IV, and A Mix over the V chord, for a 12 bar blues backing track.

It's really melting my brain. I'm thinking, "okay so G Mixolydian is like D Dorian (on the D string) or A Aeolian (on the A string) and A Mix is like D Major (on the D string), all being relevant to the string I'm playing.

My question, is there an easier way to learn how to apply the different scales when improvising with a backing track, or is it simply a case of practicing the changes until they stick. Or, maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit and need to keep practicing over the drone tracks.

[rick-slo]

Personally I would just learn where to quickly fret the different note intervals (up and down one string and across strings) and use my ears to determine what sounds good.

[Dawsie]

Responding to my own question, I found this to be quite helpful especially the comments at the end.

https://www.guitarlessonworld.com/le...-progressions/

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Dawsie

Hi All,

I could use some feedback to make sure I'm on the right path.

I've been learning about modes and how they all relate/ parallel, etc. I'm currently learning to play the scales, learning the positions of the thirds, sixths, and tenths, and practicing them using drone backing tracks. Also, I'm learning all this in DADGAD (Thanks to Doug Young and others).

I recently bought The Big Book of Backing Tracks and it gives you different options for changing the scales over different chords. For example D Mix over the I chord, G Mix over IV, and A Mix over the V chord, for a 12 bar blues backing track.

OK, key of D presumably, and that idea is based on all the chords being dom7s, and mixolydian being the "natural" scale for any dom7.

That in turn is based on the fact that dom7 chords derive from the V scale degree. So, eg a D7 chord comes originally from the G major scale (the V or "dominant" degree). So it makes sense the G major scale would fit!

When you make the D7 the I chord (as in a D blues), then it makes sense to call the scale "D mixolydian" and not "G major". Basically it's D major with a b7, of course. (But see below for other blues tips.)

Originally Posted by Dawsie

It's really melting my brain. I'm thinking, "okay so G Mixolydian is like D Dorian (on the D string) or A Aeolian (on the A string) and A Mix is like D Major (on the D string), all being relevant to the string I'm playing.

Modes are not relevant to the string you're playing (or the position or pattern on the fretboard) - although you're right about the relative relationships, and those observations are especially relevant in the case of the D blues, because they help focus your thinking on the keynote. So you can think of the scales as follows:

I (D7) = D mixolydian
IV (G7) = D dorian
V (A7) = D major

Thinking of the IV as a kind of dorian or minor I is a very "blues" thing to do. I.e., don't think of the IV chord as G7, think of it as Dm6. Whenever you hear blues vocals or solos, they never (or very rarely) jump up a 4th when it goes to the IV chord. They stay in the same place. Effectively, it's like D7 goes to Dm6 and back. (It's only the bass that makes Dm6 into G7.)

Originally Posted by Dawsie

My question, is there an easier way to learn how to apply the different scales when improvising with a backing track, or is it simply a case of practicing the changes until they stick. Or, maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit and need to keep practicing over the drone tracks.

My suggestion when playing changes - outside of the blues, for the moment - is to think of the KEY first. That's the major or minor scale of the I chord. Then change only the notes you need to change to fit whatever chords there are. You may not need to change any notes. Don't think of different scales on each chord, unless you really need to. Usually all you need to do is adjust the key scale a little to fit any chords that don't belong to the key.

When it comes to blues, it's different! The blues scale doesn't fit the chords anyway. (The "mixolydian on each chord" principle is a jazz principle, not a blues one.)
E.g., for a blues in D, most blues players would use the D blues scale throughout (D minor pent plus b5), bending into chord tones here and there, if and when they feel like it. They wouldn't think about different scales or modes on each chord. They might even ignore the chords altogether (although that would be rare, except in the most primitive blues).
Don't make your life complicated unless you need to! (or want to!) Keeping it simple is not only the easiest thing to do, it's usually the best-sounding.

[Mr. Jelly]

This reminds me of a time when I was learning the guitar. I came to a point where I was learning things that I didn't like the sounds. I came to the realization that I'd be happier learning to make the sounds I enjoy. I understand one has to look over the fence to figure out if you want to go there or not. I did and do, but I limit the expenditure of my energies dealing in things that are not positive to me. There are twelve notes.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

There are twelve notes...

...at a minimum.

Not to argue, but some musical systems such as Carnatic music have 22 notes per octave. The natural harmonic scale has more than 12 tones.

[Denny B]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

This reminds me of a time when I was learning the guitar. I came to a point where I was learning things that I didn't like the sounds. I came to the realization that I'd be happier learning to make the sounds I enjoy. I understand one has to look over the fence to figure out if you want to go there or not. I did and do, but I limit the expenditure of my energies dealing in things that are not positive to me. There are twelve notes.

Thank you so much for your comments...

I've only been learning to play for a couple of years now, and I'm in my late 60's...

I've just realized not that long ago, that I can "look over the fence", read a few topics here or other sites, and see and hear lots of things that I'd have to struggle to learn, and actually have little interest at all in spending my limited time and resources on...

Now I'm finally starting to relax more and focus on learning and playing the things that drew me to want to learn in the first place...

[Guitar Slim II]

Scales, shapes and patterns, all make a lot more sense and are easier to recognize in standard tuning. Intervals between each string are more regular, and the relationship between them is either a fourth or fifth, very handy intervals.

Alternate tunings are fun, but the one thing standard tuning has going for it is that it is clear. You might be better off learning to understand the stuff in standard tuning first, and then applying it to your alternate tunings. Most alternate tunings already imply a modality, which means that certain other modalities are going to create problems in that tuning. Standard tuning is neutral. It can deal equally well, or equally poorly, with many different modalities and keys.

[Paultergeist]

Originally Posted by JonPR

......My suggestion when playing changes - outside of the blues, for the moment - is to think of the KEY first. That's the major or minor scale of the I chord. Then change only the notes you need to change to fit whatever chords there are. You may not need to change any notes. Don't think of different scales on each chord, unless you really need to. Usually all you need to do is adjust the key scale a little to fit any chords that don't belong to the key.
.......

I just cut-and-quoted a short passage of that post as a point of reference, but I found that entire post to be very insightful and chock-full of good information.

Thanks very much for sharing that!

[Llewlyn]

Originally Posted by Dawsie

My question, is there an easier way to learn how to apply the different scales when improvising with a backing track, or is it simply a case of practicing the changes until they stick. Or, maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit and need to keep practicing over the drone tracks.

It sounds like you are overwhelming your brain with notions. I'd say that a better approach to learn musical theory is to learn a bit and then spend some time try to interiorize it. For instance, how about you phrase in Ionic on a II-V-I? Can you play a bluesy improv on a pentatonic on a Dom7 chord pattern? How about Aeolian on a II-V-I?

Only where these three things are second nature, I'd consider go on modes.

Good luck!

Ll.

[Dawsie]

I can see great benefit to my own playing, by learning where all the notes are on the fretboard, rather than relying on patterns and over-analyzing the circle of fifths, so, I've re-tuned back to standard.

It's interesting to note that DADGAD was a useful shortcut that showed me what is achievable on the guitar, since I was only working with three tunings of strings (if that makes sense).

One thing I have noticed is, when playing up and down each string, it's easy to remember the notes on a single string but when putting them together it's not so simple to remember how the notes connect across fretboard. I need more practice I guess.

I need to practice the scales , chords, and arpeggios, while at the same time working with backing tracks.

I think practice is all that it takes.

__
Dawsie

[Mr. Jelly]

Here is something to look at. Maybe you already got this. Learn the chords up the neck. Like the D chord to the E chord to the F and G etc. up the neck. From that you can figure out or see where the root of the chord is and then play off of the chord. Just a suggestion.

[Dawsie]

Originally Posted by Llewlyn

...how about you phrase in Ionic on a II-V-I? Can you play a bluesy improv on a pentatonic on a Dom7 chord pattern? How about Aeolian on a II-V-I?

Only where these three things are second nature, I'd consider go on modes.

Good luck!

Ll.

I've saved this in my notes, because I need to answer yes to all of these at some point in the future.

I'm pretty sure I could playing a bluesy improv on a pentatonic on a Dom7. However, I prefer the blues scale over the pentatonic scale. I like how it can wail.

I really need to find my way into playing over some II-V-I progressions.

__
Dawsie

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Dawsie

I really need to find my way into playing over some II-V-I progressions.

There are two main kinds, major and minor. Eg.:

Dm7 - G7 - C (maj7 or 6) = ii-V-I in C major

Dm7b5 - G7(b9) - Cm (maj7 or 6) = ii-V-i in C minor

In the major ii-V-I, you use the C major scale all the way - although it makes sense to work from the chord tones (arpeggios) in each case, with the other scale notes as passing notes.

In minor ii-V-i, the C harmonic minor scale will fit all those chords - but that doesn't suit most jazz musicians, who will often use different scales on each chord (or seem to).
Minor keys are - inevitably - more complicated because of the common practice of using a major V chord (from harmonic minor), while the other chords generally come from natural minor (aeolian). That's even before you get into jazz scales.
But it's still worth learning the arpeggios of the chords.

IOW, before thinking "scales" on any of these chords (and definitely before considering "modes" at all!), make sure you have a few choices of chord shapes for each one, in various positions on the neck. The better you know your chords, the clearer the whole scale/improvisation business becomes - because all you're really doing is plotting paths from one chord tone to another; planning notes you're going to land on on the next chord, etc.

If there's a part of the fretboard where you can't place a chord shape (even a partial one), that's a part of the fretboard where you shouldn't be soloing.

[Dawsie]

Originally Posted by JonPR

IOW, before thinking "scales" on any of these chords (and definitely before considering "modes" at all!), make sure you have a few choices of chord shapes for each one, in various positions on the neck. The better you know your chords, the clearer the whole scale/improvisation business becomes - because all you're really doing is plotting paths from one chord tone to another; planning notes you're going to land on on the next chord, etc.

Thanks Jon, you always give good information and, now I realise, this is all still way ahead of me. I need to work on the fretboard, especially arpeggios.

I dug out this book that I bought ages ago, Chord Tone Soloing by Barrett Tagliarino, but I've lost the *#* CD that comes with it and there's no link for online sound files. I've been buying a lot of books lately. I'll have a look and see what else I've got that covers what I should be practicing.

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Dawsie