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Old 11-26-2014, 09:13 AM
Sixfir Sixfir is offline
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Default Does the mic/pickup system interfere with the acoustic sound?

Hi, I was wondering if those kind of mic/pickup system may anyhow interfere with the acoustic sound, impeding maybe the proper vibration of the top, and if the undersaddle pickup won't hinder the good transmission of the vibration from the saddle to the top?

(here an L.R Baggs Anthem system)

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Old 11-26-2014, 10:36 AM
reholli reholli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixfir View Post
Hi, I was wondering if those kind of mic/pickup system may anyhow interfere with the acoustic sound, impeding maybe the proper vibration of the top, and if the undersaddle pickup won't hinder the good transmission of the vibration from the saddle to the top?

(here an L.R Baggs Anthem system)

I'm sure you'll receive opinions ranging from not at all to of course it will.

Personally, I don't trust them not to and wouldn't use them. Actually, if truth be told I prefer my acoustic guitars purely acoustic, and purchase no acoulstic guitars with any type of built-in electronics. If I ever needed amplification, a microphone would suffice.
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Old 11-26-2014, 10:40 AM
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I personally could not detect any change in tone or volume after putting a Baggs Lyric in my AJ.
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Old 11-26-2014, 10:55 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixfir View Post
Hi, I was wondering if those kind of mic/pickup system may anyhow interfere with the acoustic sound, impeding maybe the proper vibration of the top, and if the undersaddle pickup won't hinder the good transmission of the vibration from the saddle to the top?

(here an L.R Baggs Anthem system)

Whether or not it is affecting the pure acoustic sound is immaterial.

No human being could ever detect the difference, especially it they did not know, to begin with, that there was a system inside. If they knew, they'd imagine all sorts of things.

The more important point is: Will a given system provide YOU with a palatable aural experience? It won't sound exactly like your guitar un-plugged, but many systems provide a pleasant sound.

If purity is your aim, work at playing only for listening audiences in living rooms with no PA system.

HE
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Old 11-26-2014, 11:12 AM
teleamp teleamp is offline
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have the LR Baggs Anthem in a Martin 00-18V and it has no effect on the acoustic sound...
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Old 11-26-2014, 11:30 AM
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Hi Sixfir...

The main benefit to my guitars when I switched dual source systems from the Lloyd Baggs Dual source with an LB-6 saddle to the K&K dual source (under bridge plate pickup and internal mic) was restoring the original acoustic tone of the guitar when played in the room instead of a PA system/amp.

I didn't realize how much it had robbed from my guitar. The LB-6 saddle is a brass blank with 6 piezos embedded in it, topped with Micarta (man made saddle material), and it is a great acoustic electric pickup.

When I had the Baggs system removed from my guitar, a bone saddle custom made for it, and the K&K installed, the improvement to my acoustic tone was immediately apparent to me, and to my gigging partner (who frequently plays my guitar) and a couple guests who drop in to play my guitars and drink coffee. I said nothing, and they all commented on how much better it sounded.

I was shocked at the pile of 'stuff' laying on the luthier's bench that had been removed from my guitar, and took it home and weighed it on my coffee roasting scales - and it was over 6 ounces of gear which came out of the inside of my guitar. It was replaced with under 2 ounces of pickup/mic.

I was caught off guard when the tone improved so much. The guitar already sounded so good, I didn't think it could improve. I was wrong...

I think undersaddle pickups, specifically the LB-6 or the element flattened/crushed coaxial style undersaddle pickups, rob acoustic tone from an instrument. These both have a dampening effect on the acoustic tone of a guitar.

I don't find the same to be true of the Sound Board Transducers (K&K Pure Mini, Feather, PUTW etc).



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Old 11-26-2014, 01:44 PM
j3ffr0 j3ffr0 is offline
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I put the LR Baggs Anthem in my Alvarez and it came back out because it had a pretty big large adverse impact on the acoustic sound. Not sure if it was the large pre-amp attached to the guitar top or the mesh under the saddle that had the most impact, but that rig had to go. However, it did sound really good plugged in -- I'll say that for it.
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Old 11-26-2014, 02:03 PM
Sixfir Sixfir is offline
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Hi LJ, thank you for the answers, sounds very interesting, do you know were the mic is fixed with the K and K dual source?
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Old 11-26-2014, 02:16 PM
Vancebo Vancebo is offline
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I noticed the change in my acoustic tone when I had the softer flexible chorded style pickups installed and uninstalled on my guitars. It was true with the Highlander the DTAR multi-source and the Baggs Element that comes with the Anthem. I can't say I noticed the difference when a hard stiff piezo element was installed. I would agree with Larry on installing the heavier bulkier systems as well.

BTW, Larry, Bone does sound much different to my ears than micarta. My K&K mini DPA mic combo was wonderfully unobtrusive. Both were directly attached to a stereo endpin and to the Pendulum module.
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Old 11-26-2014, 04:04 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi Sixfir...

The main benefit to my guitars when I switched dual source systems from the Lloyd Baggs Dual source with an LB-6 saddle to the K&K dual source (under bridge plate pickup and internal mic) was restoring the original acoustic tone of the guitar when played in the room instead of a PA system/amp.

I didn't realize how much it had robbed from my guitar. The LB-6 saddle is a brass blank with 6 piezos embedded in it, topped with Micarta (man made saddle material), and it is a great acoustic electric pickup.

When I had the Baggs system removed from my guitar, a bone saddle custom made for it, and the K&K installed, the improvement to my acoustic tone was immediately apparent to me, and to my gigging partner (who frequently plays my guitar) and a couple guests who drop in to play my guitars and drink coffee. I said nothing, and they all commented on how much better it sounded.

I was shocked at the pile of 'stuff' laying on the luthier's bench that had been removed from my guitar, and took it home and weighed it on my coffee roasting scales - and it was over 6 ounces of gear which came out of the inside of my guitar. It was replaced with under 2 ounces of pickup/mic.

I was caught off guard when the tone improved so much. The guitar already sounded so good, I didn't think it could improve. I was wrong...

I think undersaddle pickups, specifically the LB-6 or the element flattened/crushed coaxial style undersaddle pickups, rob acoustic tone from an instrument. These both have a dampening effect on the acoustic tone of a guitar.

I don't find the same to be true of the Sound Board Transducers (K&K Pure Mini, Feather, PUTW etc).



One thing to consider is how much of a change a bone saddle can make on the overall tone of any acoustic. When I switched from Tusq to Bone on my Larrivee I felt as though I had more volume and more overall clarity. It was honestly a dramatic shift in tone. I am sure that the LB6 had some impact but I would argue that the bone saddle made the biggest improvement on your tone.
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Old 11-26-2014, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
One thing to consider is how much of a change a bone saddle can make on the overall tone of any acoustic. When I switched from Tusq to Bone on my Larrivee I felt as though I had more volume and more overall clarity. It was honestly a dramatic shift in tone. I am sure that the LB6 had some impact but I would argue that the bone saddle made the biggest improvement on your tone.
Hi Petty...

I'd agree that removing the brass blank with the manmade material glued to the top of it, and exchanging it for a bone saddle was what made the bulk of the difference too.

If I somehow failed to convey that, thanks for giving me the opportunity to clear it up.

That said, I have changed saddles from man-made to bone in many guitars, and this change went far beyond any amount of change I'd ever made or heard. I am also convinced that removing 4½ ounces of preamp which was velcroed to the back of the guitar in line with the sound hole, and then removing the battery contributed to improved sound too.





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Old 11-26-2014, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sixfir View Post
Hi LJ, thank you for the answers, sounds very interesting, do you know were the mic is fixed with the K and K dual source?
Hi Sixfir...

It's attached to the bottom edge of a side brace adjacent to the sound hole with some double-stick foam tape, and it sits ½" - ¾" below the surface of the top, pointing out at the 3rd string.

This is a picture of one of my internal mics...





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Old 11-26-2014, 06:10 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is online now
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Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi Petty...

I'd agree that removing the brass blank with the manmade material glued to the top of it, and exchanging it for a bone saddle was what made the bulk of the difference too.

If I somehow failed to convey that, thanks for giving me the opportunity to clear it up.

That said, I have changed saddles from man-made to bone in many guitars, and this change went far beyond any amount of change I'd ever made or heard. I am also convinced that removing 4½ ounces of preamp which was velcroed to the back of the guitar in line with the sound hole, and then removing the battery contributed to improved sound too.





No worries, I think I was actually the one to make things confusing! I was just trying to say that the switch to bone could definitely contribute to the tonal improvement and not just the removal of the LB6. I could for example remove the UST from my one guitar with a Tusq nut and then put in a bone saddle and associate the improvement in tone to the removal of the UST when really it's the new bone saddle.

Having said that, it's definitely all subjective. I am not a huge fan of having added weight in my guitar but unfortunately some pickups rely on active electronics. I would love to install the K&K trinity and be done with it but it would just be a nightmare in the venues that I play.
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Old 11-26-2014, 06:56 PM
scottishrogue scottishrogue is offline
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Cool Does any kind of pickup affect the acoustic sound?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Emerson View Post
Whether or not it is affecting the pure acoustic sound is immaterial. No human being could ever detect the difference, especially it they did not know, to begin with, that there was a system inside. If they knew, they'd imagine all sorts of things.
I agree with Howard...if you can detect any difference, it's all in your head!

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Old 11-26-2014, 10:40 PM
jomaynor jomaynor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Emerson View Post
Whether or not it is affecting the pure acoustic sound is immaterial.

No human being could ever detect the difference, especially it they did not know, to begin with, that there was a system inside. If they knew, they'd imagine all sorts of things. ---snip---
Ha! I absolutely agree.

As far as changing the acoustic tone goes, several lbs. of forearm resting on the soundboard will have a more damping effect on the sound than
any type of pickup system, and even then, the difference is so slight as to be barely perceptible by most people.
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