When to stop supporting the famous offender?

[Flying Orca]

Originally Posted by El Diablo

Not you in particular, but how many people, who told Natalie Maines to "shut up and play" are the ones who'll hang on Nugent's every word, or vise versa?

I happen to have a lot of the same opinions as Nugent regarding a lot of issues. That said, if I go to see him in concert, I want to hear "Stranglehold". I don't want to hear him complain about Obama.

I doubt Nugent and I agree on much other than, perhaps, some opinions on hunting. I wouldn't suggest that he "shut up" because of that, but I wouldn't willingly part with a nickel to support him. Steve Earle, on the other hand, I appreciate for his musical sense and for his incorporation of political material into his act, so I go see him every chance I get.

[El Diablo]

Originally Posted by Flying Orca

I guess another way of putting that would be to say that I think I have better standards as to what constitutes a valid opinion than most people do.

And every single person you'll ever meet in your life will likely claim the exact same thing.

There comes a point where an opinion stops being an opinion and starts to become a statement of fact. Until that time, though, it's all just opinion.

[Flying Orca]

Originally Posted by El Diablo

And every single person you'll ever meet in your life will likely claim the exact same thing.

Of course. It's the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.

Originally Posted by El Diablo

There comes a point where an opinion stops being an opinion and starts to become a statement of fact.

Agreed, assuming that statements of fact are even possible in relation to the question at hand. I would suggest that the point to which you refer is when the opinion is issued by an expert - which brings us in a neat full circle.

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by ewalling

I would argue that the highlighted part is something over which we have no control. We cannot "decide" not to have negative feelings any more than we can decide not to like a perfectly likeable person.

That's why I think the whole notion of forgiveness is mostly bogus.

While many (but not all) people might agree that we cannot "decide" to stop having certain feelings, I do think that many people would allow that what we think can influence our feelings. And I believe that the language in the quote from Greater Good is consistent with this view: they talk about "letting go" of feelings...in short, making a decision to cease any mental operations that might make certain feelings more likely to persist. And, for many people, a process of forgiving involves actively performing certain "tasks" that they believe will facilitate "letting go" of negative feelings. Examples: saying a loving kindness prayer for someone who has hurt us, making a donation to a cause that might benefit someone like the perpetrator of the hurt (e.g. one might donate funds to an alcohol treatment program in the wake of being involved in an accident with a drunk driver), engaging in a guided visualization that involves breathing in the suffering of others and breathing out healing light; there are many variations and possibilities in this regard.

I will readily grant you that such activities are not for everyone, and I do not mention them as a prescription for anyone that has been hurt by another. I mention them to indicate that one can make decisions and then become involved in actions/processes that facilitate "letting go". Depending upon one's beliefs and values, one might choose to do so.

And last (and this is just my opinion, and it is not intended as a criticism...your posts have led me to very much appreciate you, and I would not wish to be critical of you): if you believe forgiveness is mostly bogus, you may not have given the subject enough study, or you may not have personally pursued one of the various processes for cultivating forgiveness. If you find one that is approachable for you, and give it a few tries, it is hard to imagine that you would not find them effective. I am a personal fan of tonglen, a breathing and imagery practice that is often associated with Buddhism. But the Christian tradition has some wonderful practices and terrific writings about the topic. And there are several books written by therapists, for those who prefer a secular approach ("Forgiveness: A Bold Choice for a Peaceful Heart" is one that I have recommended in the past).

Wishing you well, ewalling.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

While many (but not all) people might agree that we cannot "decide" to stop having certain feelings, I do think that many people would allow that what we think can influence our feelings. And I believe that the language in the quote from Greater Good is consistent with this view: they talk about "letting go" of feelings...in short, making a decision to cease any mental operations that might make certain feelings more likely to persist. And, for many people, a process of forgiving involves actively performing certain "tasks" that they believe will facilitate "letting go" of negative feelings. Examples: saying a loving kindness prayer for someone who has hurt us, making a donation to a cause that might benefit someone like the perpetrator of the hurt (e.g. one might donate funds to an alcohol treatment program in the wake of being involved in an accident with a drunk driver), engaging in a guided visualization that involves breathing in the suffering of others and breathing out healing light; there are many variations and possibilities in this regard.

I will readily grant you that such activities are not for everyone, and I do not mention them as a prescription for anyone that has been hurt by another. I mention them to indicate that one can make decisions and then become involved in actions/processes that facilitate "letting go". Depending upon one's beliefs and values, one might choose to do so.

And last (and this is just my opinion, and it is not intended as a criticism...your posts have led me to very much appreciate you, and I would not wish to be critical of you): if you believe forgiveness is mostly bogus, you may not have given the subject enough study, or you may not have personally pursued one of the various processes for cultivating forgiveness. If you find one that is approachable for you, and give it a few tries, it is hard to imagine that you would not find them effective. I am a personal fan of tonglen, a breathing and imagery practice that is often associated with Buddhism. But the Christian tradition has some wonderful practices and terrific writings about the topic. And there are several books written by therapists, for those who prefer a secular approach ("Forgiveness: A Bold Choice for a Peaceful Heart" is one that I have recommended in the past).

Wishing you well, ewalling.

Thanks for your post, buddyhu. I appreciate it and will give what you said some thought.

[Chicago Sandy]

Originally Posted by ewalling

As far as I know, Woody Allen committed no actual crime, and his sexual proclivities are of no interest to me whatsoever; his private life does not impinge on my respect and enjoyment of his work.

Ted Nugent, however, is a whole 'nother box of slugs ...

You said what I’d intended to.

Allen had no blood relationship with Soon-yi (nor, do I recall, did he adopt her since Mia’s ex Andre Previn was her adoptive father), so it wasn’t incest. He was already divorced from Farrow, so it wasn’t cheating. Soon-yi was of legal age anyway, and a more-than-willing participant in the relationship--as she married and is still married to Allen. Mia Farrow may have also been the recipient of some ironic karma anyway: back in the early ‘70s the (now late) singer-songwriter Dory Previn had an FM radio hit with her chanson-à-clef “Beware of Young Girls” (“..beware of young girls of twenty and four...”) about her marriage to Andre being broken up by none other than...Mia Farrow.

Nugent, though---personally, my regard for Anthony Bourdain has been knocked down a few pegs after watching him happily hang out with the Nuge (despite their obvious ideological differences) on the Montana episode of “No Reservations.” (Granted, it was for the entertainment value, and the fact that Bourdain rarely needs an excuse to eat and hoist a few beers on camera with anybody--but Nugent’s sentiments are so repugnant that I am throwing up in my mouth a little while typing this).

[Riker36]

Originally Posted by Chicago Sandy

...but Nugent’s sentiments are so repugnant that I am throwing up in my mouth a little while typing this).

I'm amazed that there are so many Nugent supporters around. And not to sound harsh but, anyone that has even a little bit of commons sense would find him repulsive, regardless of one's political leanings.

[flaggerphil]

Originally Posted by Riker36

I'm amazed that there are so many Nugent supporters around. And not to sound harsh but, anyone that has even a little bit of commons sense would find him repulsive, regardless of one's political leanings.

.....Indeed.....