How powerful of an amp is really required?

[menhir]

I'm curious regarding what performers here would recommend as sufficient amplifier wattage these days. I've done a lot of surfing and, as expected, there doesn't seem to be any sort of consensus.

What would be considered the minimum power for an all-around performing amp, vocals and guitar, that would do the job for anything from an average size club to an outdoor venue? Or maybe I should say, the optimum power recommendation.

I expect to get differing opinions here too, but I trust the advice of members from this forum more than anywhere else. I'll work it out.

[RustyAxe]

I wouldn't choose a combo amp for an "average size club" or outdoor performance of nearly any size. I'd rather use a PA ... two powered speakers and a passive mixer with FX. There's much to consider in live sound besides just the power output of the amp. But I'm sure I won't be in the majority here.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by menhir

I'm curious regarding what performers here would recommend as sufficient amplifier wattage these days. I've done a lot of surfing and, as expected, there doesn't seem to be any sort of consensus.

What would be considered the minimum power for an all-around performing amp, vocals and guitar, that would do the job for anything from an average size club to an outdoor venue? Or maybe I should say, the optimum power recommendation.

I expect to get differing opinions here too, but I trust the advice of members from this forum more than anywhere else. I'll work it out.

Some rather important factors, which have little to do with system wattage, are the speaker placement(s), projection and dispersion of the amplified sound in/at the performance venue.

For example, a 400 RMS watt stage amp (e.g., Schertler Jam 400) will be outperformed by a 300 RMS watt PA, at least in terms of the factors listed above.

That being said, a small stage amp (e.g., Schertler Jam 150) can handle may situations/venues, moreso if it is placed on a chair or pole.

[menhir]

What prompted my question was an article I recently read where the writer states no guitarist should ever need more than a 50 watt amp.

I thought that was a little odd based on my previous (and very out-of-date) experience which was mostly in cover bands in night club venues. For keyboards I used a 100 watt pa amp and when I played bass, a 60 watt amp. For the vocals, a PA system of less than 100 watts was out of the question.

I'm not sure how much that would apply to a solo guitar/vocals situation when searching for a single amp to cover most situations that I'm likely to encounter...including the possibility of playing again in a group. I don't want to have to buy twice if I choose too low a wattage the first time.

BTW, I totally understand how perceived "loudness" can vary based on speaker placement, room acoustics, size of venue, etc..
I guess that also goes to the heart of my question...Since I can't predict each and every one of these variables ahead of time (I can only adapt to them), I'd like to be prepared for the most common of them without finding myself under-powered.

Incidentally, I'm zeroing in on the Carvin AG300. I had previously decided on the AG200, but I thought the 300's 12" speaker was worth the difference in price. Probably for the same reason as my question on power...a little extra capability is better than a little reqret.

[AndyC]

That article would have been referring to an electric guitar amp which is then mic'd up on stage to run through the FOH PA system. And in that respect, 50 watts would be enough - think of all the classic bands using a Vox AC30 for example.

I think you are confusing electric guitar amplification with acoustic guitar performing (with vocals), which is like comparing chalk to cheese.

[lschwart]

The problem here is that watts are not the right measure to use when you're trying to figure out what you need in order to cover a given performance situation. A sense of the maximum SPL of the combo amp or PA speaker and amp (or powered PA speaker)--especially a sense of how loud it can get and still sound good to you--is far more important, along with the sound dispersion characteristics. Together all that will tell you a lot more about whether or not the thing is going to be as loud as you need it to be and whether or not you'll be able to position it in a way that will allow you to cover the room (and whether the positioning will allow you to hear yourself, if you need to, or if you will need some sort of monitor).

Those Carvin amps can function in the way we usually think of combo amps functioning--on the stage with you, to your side or behind you, giving you an adequate boost for a small coffeeshop type gig. But they have a lot more power than you can use that way without deafening yourself or getting lost in a mass of feedback. Up on a speaker pole (they have pole mounts), however, they become more like PA speakers with a built-in mixer. Behind you over your head height, you can get a lot more volume before you hit feedback and ear-damaging levels for noisier and/or bigger gigs. To your side at that height, maybe a little more volume still. In front of you, facing out into the house, you'll get even more--although at that point you might need another combo amp or small speaker to monitor yourself (it depends on how loud the room is and how used you are to playing without hearing yourself very well).

On the other hand, PA speakers are better designed for dispersing sound once you get to the point where you need to, so a lot of people, myself included, prefer to have a small combo amp for the small situations (for example, a Fishman Loudbox Artist--or even a Mini) and then a small PA set up for larger gigs made up of a small passive digital or analog mixer and one or a set of powered 8", 10", or 12" PA speakers (there are lots of good options for such speakers, starting at about $250 and going up as far as your budget and your sound and build quality allows and requires). Note that the same small combo amp used for small gigs can be used--assuming it has two channels--as a monitor for the larger, PA gigs--and if it's just you and your guitar, it can also function as your mixer. You just plug into the amp, set it on stage pointed up toward your head at moderate volume and use the DI out to connect to your PA speaker or speakers.

Louis

[MiG50]

Like a lot of other posters have already stated, it depends on whether you are using a PA system or not. The ideal situation would be a mixer, stereo pair of PA mains, and a monitor. Then again, that's a pretty expensive package with lots of parts to set up and dial in.

If you are using your acoustic amp INSTEAD OF a PA system, due to cost or ease of use (or both), you have a different calculus. Also depends on if you are playing "background music," or trying to fill the venue with sound. The 60 watt Loudbox Mini can do great for a coffee shop setup, but would struggle in a small club.

As a general shoot-from-the-hip suggestion, I'd say 100 watts is a minimum for a versatile amp that could cover a small venue. Any larger place than that, you probably want to use a PA system. It's just hard to cover larger spaces with one small box sitting on the floor.

As for the "50 watts max" tip, that almost certainly refers to tube-powered electric guitar amplifiers, and not acoustic amps (or bass amps, PA systems, etc). I've played club gigs with a 12-watt tube amp for electric guitar, and it was plenty loud. Solid-state full-range acoustic guitar amps are completely different in their power ratings.

[Mandobart]

Amplifier mfrs are notorious for use of fiction, folklore and fantasy in rating their products. Here is a pretty decent explanation.

Originally Posted by MiG50

Like a lot of other posters have already stated, it depends on whether you are using a PA system or not. The ideal situation would be a mixer, stereo pair of PA mains, and a monitor. Then again, that's a pretty expensive package with lots of parts to set up and dial in.

If you are using your acoustic amp INSTEAD OF a PA system, due to cost or ease of use (or both), you have a different calculus. Also depends on if you are playing "background music," or trying to fill the venue with sound. .... It's just hard to cover larger spaces with one small box sitting on the floor....

One reason I chose the Carvin AG300 - it doesn't have to sit on the floor. I usually mount it up on a speaker pole. Its a 200 W acoustic amp that acts like a powered speaker.

[MC5C]

Clean acoustic guitar watts ain't PA watts and surely aren't rock and roll dirty tube watts... For a club, you might want a 20 watt nasty little tube amp for your Texas blues stylings, or a mic and a 300 watt PA system for your finger-picked folk vocals and backup. If you play clean and crystal clear, then power is a lot less relevant. And cheap and small. You can pick a 1000 watt class D amp up with one hand, mind you, you'll still need a van for the speakers. But by the time you get to 100 watts of classic Fender, Marshall or Sunn tube power with a couple of 4X12's you've got a very very loud stage presence if you want output tube distortion or output transformer compression. At the same time you can get almost the same tone from an emulator or a little 2/5/20 watt switchable tube amp with three or four pre-amp gain stages. Not really the same, but so close. For me, as soon as I could get a true 100 watt RMS amp with reverb, echo and emulation in a foot-pedal, the shoe dropped that watts were irrelevant and tone was king.

[menhir]

It looks like for my purposes, or at least my anticipated purposes, the AG300 should suit me fine.

My wife said I can buy the amp if she gets a new kitchen floor.

Deal.

Well, that about wraps it up for recommendations on equipment purchases...
Listening to advice on this forum over time I've chosen my amplifier, my microphone and stand, etc.

I just have to place the orders.

And practice, practice, practice.

[Hurricane Ramon]

• Budget
• Crowd size
• Room size
• Instruments
• Singers
• Portability - AC/DC

OOOOOOPS Never Mind

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by lschwart

The problem here is that watts are not the right measure to use when you're trying to figure out what you need in order to cover a given performance situation. A sense of the maximum SPL of the combo amp or PA speaker and amp (or powered PA speaker)--especially a sense of how loud it can get and still sound good to you--is far more important, along with the sound dispersion characteristics.

Louis is right. Sound Pressure Level (SPL) is important.

* Schertler-Acus have low efficiency speakers (a bit like monitor speaker) so tons of Watt won't make much SPL.
* Very efficient speakers can be louder, but they usually color the sound more.

Finally you have to keep in mind that your ear is very sensitive in the midrange and not so in the lows and highs.

So an amp with 200W 8" speaker amp in which most of the watts are dedicated to produce bass can sound weak compare to a tiny 6" 100W amp that produces only mids.

The first amp will sound fuller but not loud.

To nconclude: If you are not singing or you don't care about cutting the lows you can get super loud with fewer watts. (Think electric guitar)

Cuki

[KevWind]

Both Lewis and Cuki are hitting the mark.
Far too many variables to have a simple wattage rating mean much .
In terms of knowing the spl, projection/dispurshion and speaker efficiency.

[roylor4]

Louis's response was very complete. IMO (& please keep in mind that I am a minimalist by nature), I'd get a Loudbox mini and be done.

Loud enough to play small clubs and restaurants alone and with a line out to DI straight into a PA if your in a band.

The AG300 will certainly get the job done, but it is probably overkill for most solo jobs and if you're in a band situation, mixing through the board is best to get the proper balance anyway. Why not just go small and easy?