The Importance of Struggle... ~ Chinua Achebe

[Otterhound]

Originally Posted by HHP

This particular parable seems to not so much celebrate struggle as it does surrender, albeit with an ultimately meaningless gesture thrown in for good measure. I'm more in the "do not go gentle" camp and would subscribe to more of a "I may lose this fight but I'll make you sorry you started it" message.

An astute observation . Capitulation never spells winning .
I revert to my original post .
Since I own and tend to identify with Airedale Terriers , my position on this should be obvious . Airedales don't start fights , they finish them .
Bravo HHP !

[RP]

This story seems akin to Dylan Thomas' :

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Clearly interpretations are numerous and subjective, but mine is that victory shows itself in many ways. As a Special Education teacher, I never measured the accomplishments of my less able students against those of the school's highest achievers. I measured their end-of-year achievements against their beginning of the year skills. The tortoise assumed that he was going to perish, but victory to him was showing that he'd died valiantly and after a great struggle.

My suburban Philadelphia high school wrestling team used to compete with a team from the Philadelphia School for the Deaf and Blind. Our team generally fielded state champs including one young man who went on to be a three-time NCAA champion. In short, the matches against the blind and/or deaf wrestlers tended to be one-sided but their "victory" was in the way that they carried themselves against superior wrestlers who yielded nothing except certain rule changes, such as not losing contact with a blind wrestler. Sorry, but I just think that it's overly simplistic to judge such contests by the end-of-game score....

[ssjk]

Originally Posted by Otterhound

An astute observation . Capitulation never spells winning .
I revert to my original post .
Since I own and tend to identify with Airedale Terriers , my position on this should be obvious . Airedales don't start fights , they finish them .
Bravo HHP !

With all due respect to the abilities of airedales, pretty sure the outcome from the original post had it been an Airedale rather than a tortoise would have been the same.

Leopard 1
Opponent 0
Large area of scattered dirt

[Gmountain]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

As Truckjohn has aptly pointed out, the parable is left unresolved. The "gesture" is only meaningless if you make a host of assumptions about what happens after the parable ends.

If you assume the turtle dies, and he becomes a martyr to all the other turtles in the area, and that catalyzes huge societal change, his death is not at all about surrender, nor are the other elements of the story meaningless.

If you assume that there s some type of afterlife for turtles, and the manner in which he faces death effects the nature of his afterlife, the story shades differently.

If you assume that the turtle does not die, then the story takes on a very different tone.

And if you make no assumption, or read what is posted here and subsequently drop your assumptions, then the story has a rather interesting effect in the reader....which is often the intent of a well-crafted parable, if we can take in the story and its manifold interpretations, and allow ourselves to be changed.

I wouldn't assume any of that. I also wouldn't assume that the
sand he throws up signals a helicopter to come rescue him, or that the leopard can't eat him because he is turtle intolerant.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

As Truckjohn has aptly pointed out, the parable is left unresolved. The "gesture" is only meaningless if you make a host of assumptions about what happens after the parable ends.

If you assume the turtle dies, and he becomes a martyr to all the other turtles in the area, and that catalyzes huge societal change, his death is not at all about surrender, nor are the other elements of the story meaningless.

If you assume that there s some type of afterlife for turtles, and the manner in which he faces death effects the nature of his afterlife, the story shades differently.

If you assume that the turtle does not die, then the story takes on a very different tone.

And if you make no assumption, or read what is posted here and subsequently drop your assumptions, then the story has a rather interesting effect in the reader....which is often the intent of a well-crafted parable, if we can take in the story and its manifold interpretations, and allow ourselves to be changed.

Indeed.

There has finally been a nice discussion of this...mostly.

Thank you.

In first experiencing this story as told live/on-air/on-the-fly (which is linked to in the first post) I mostly considered how the turtle has lived his life (to the extreme, and with cleverness), how he recognizes that life is indeed filled with struggle (of one level of magnitude or another), how the living organism responds to these struggles, and also how he follows an indigenous philosophy (in a way) that "today is a good day to die" here at his end.

He has made his mark, and in many ways far-more than what some might consider superficial in his final moments...

...and then we also have the unresolved to contemplate.

Not as cut & dried as some have presented, IMHO.

[HHP]

I never thought parables were audience tested for alternate endings.

[Gmountain]

Why aren't all posts equally valid? Only some points of view count?

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by HHP

If you are struggling with that question, you get it.All that's left is to get a question mark tattooed on your forehead to mark your struggle.

I sometimes think that people don't get Long Jon.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

Indeed.

There has finally been a nice discussion of this...mostly.

Thank you.

In first experiencing this story as told live/on-air/on-the-fly (which is linked to in the first post) I mostly considered how the turtle has lived his life (to the extreme, and with cleverness), how he recognizes that life is indeed filled with struggle (of one level of magnitude or another), how the living organism responds to these struggles, and also how he follows an indigenous philosophy (in a way) that "today is a good day to die" here at his end.

He has made his mark, and in many ways far-more than what some might consider superficial in his final moments...

...and then we also have the unresolved to contemplate.

Not as cut & dried as some have presented, IMHO.

I don't have the backstory of the turtle and how he lived his life, so when I read it I didn't know what to make of it at first. So I didn't respond, assuming some wiser than I would fill in some of the story.

My first read was that it was an odd, somewhat false, and ultimately useless act. I would also prefer that he actually engaged in a struggle than paint the picture of one. Have a hard time getting by that.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by Dirk Hofman

I don't have the backstory of the turtle and how he lived his life, so when I read it I didn't know what to make of it at first. So I didn't respond, assuming some wiser than I would fill in some of the story.



My first read was that it was an odd, somewhat false, and ultimately useless act. I would also prefer that he actually engaged in a struggle than paint the picture of one. Have a hard time getting by that.

I don’t know a single human being whose life is without struggle...

...or any living organism, for that matter.

In many ways the struggle from single cell creatures to our present state is what has created us...and continues to let all of us know that we are alive.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

I don’t know a single human being whose life is without struggle...

...or any living organism, for that matter.

In many ways the struggle from single cell creatures to our present state is what has created us...and continues to let all of us know that we are alive.

Not sure that addresses what I'm saying, but I'm OK saying I don't really get the parable at this point. Feigning struggle just seems odd to me. I don't get the lesson.

[Jim Owen]

It's a very apt parable for Achebe's life. After his accident, he suffered from extreme pain in addiction to the paralysis of his lower limbs. Each day was a struggle.

In many ways, his most famous work, Things Fall Apart, struggles to counter centuries of traditions of European depictions of Africa. He chose to write in in English (he was bilingual) to reach a wider audience (he succeeded), yet he was sometimes criticized for not writing it in Igbo.

Many less influential writers collected Nobel Prizes. Some believe that Achebe's decision to write in English decreased his chances with the committee.

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by Gmountain

Why aren't all posts equally valid? Only some points of view count?

Below is the entry for "valid" from Merriam Webster. Which definition are you using when you ask your question?

val·id\ˈva-ləd\
adjective
: fair or reasonable
: acceptable according to the law
Full Definition
1 : having legal efficacy or force; especially : executed with the proper legal authority and formalities <a valid contract>
2 a : well-grounded or justifiable : being at once relevant and meaningful <a valid theory>
b : logically correct <a valid argument> <valid inference>
3 : appropriate to the end in view : effective <every craft has its own valid methods>
4 of a taxon : conforming to accepted principles of sound biological classification
va·lid·i·ty \və-ˈli-də-tē, va-\ noun
val·id·ly \ˈva-ləd-lē\ adverb
Examples
your argument isn't valid because you're taking what should be the conclusion and using it as a premise
only further investigation will show whether your theory is valid
Origin: Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French valide, from Medieval Latin validus, from Latin, strong, potent, from valēre.
First use: 1571
Synonyms: analytic (or analytical), coherent, consequent, good, rational, reasonable, sensible, sound, logical, well-founded, well-grounded
Antonyms: illegitimate, illogical, incoherent, inconsequent, inconsequential, invalid, irrational, unreasonable, unsound, weak
Synonym discussion: valid sound cogent convincing telling mean having such force as to compel serious attention and usually acceptance. valid implies being supported by objective truth or generally accepted authority <a valid reason for being absent> <a valid marriage>. sound implies a basis of flawless reasoning or of solid grounds <a sound proposal for reviving the economy>. cogent may stress either weight of sound argument and evidence or lucidity of presentation <the prosecutor's cogent summation won over the jury>. convincing suggests a power to overcome doubt, opposition, or reluctance to accept <a convincing argument for welfare reform>. telling stresses an immediate and crucial effect striking at the heart of a matter <a telling example of bureaucratic waste>.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

I sometimes think that people don't get Long Jon.

I think you just have to experience Long Jon, not get him.

[Larry Pattis]

Originally Posted by HHP

I think you just have to experience Long Jon, not get him.

Perhaps he’s a parable.