effeect of attack/volume on tone?

[David Rock]

I have read many threads here, but I cannot remember one about the effect of...plectrum on tonal qualities specifically. Sure there have been discussions about how much nail to use and some about picks but more to the point...I have read many 'isms' between Martin and Taylor players about 'tone' (not EVEN going there about that).

There is no doubt that tone is personal. My question is regarding how our right hand brings forth the sound. I still struggle 'choosing' between my 3 guitars (I know that is at least 2 too many) and I know I play them differently with my right hand.

Today I brought out my steel string -- a very good model that I am fond of, but my ears have grown away from. I concentrated on bringing out certain tones...really concentrated. It occurred to me that much of 'tone', that is brightness/darkness of an acoustic guitar, may be situated simply in how 'hard we play it', what our right hand calls out.

I hate to put it to other words but here goes...does guitar A sound like guitar A when played XXX, but sound like guitar B when played YYY? How much is our input to do with what comes out?

I am guessing most people here would say, "It is everything!".

If it is 'everything' (my hypothesis) then why do we continue to mush it around? Guitar A in my hands WILL NOT sound like guitar A in your hands.

Beg your input to solve the riddle,
D

[HHP]

Most of your tone will come from the right/picking hand. If you use a pick, that will be a significant factor as well. Picks are predictable once you've tried enough of them. By selecting material, shape, thickness, and edge profile you can make a guitar sound anything from soft/warm to loud/clear.

Guitar itself has certain propensities built in as a parlor will never sound like a dreadnaught no matter what else you do. Strings come into it as well.

Of the parts of the entire signal chain that you have control over, what happens with your right hand/pick has the most significant and immediate impact.

[Marco Polo]

Agreed with HHP - the dynamics of the right hand plays a significant role in tone.

Additionally, where you pic/strum relative to the soundhole will also change the tone. Experiment!

[DukeX]

Originally Posted by David Rock

I have read many threads here, but I cannot remember one about the effect of...plectrum on tonal qualities specifically...

...My question is regarding how our right hand brings forth the sound...

...Today I brought out my steel string -- a very good model that I am fond of, but my ears have grown away from. I concentrated on bringing out certain tones...really concentrated. It occurred to me that much of 'tone', that is brightness/darkness of an acoustic guitar, may be situated simply in how 'hard we play it', what our right hand calls out...

It's not just how hard you play. It's how you play.

How loose the grip, how loose the wrist, how much pick protrudes, what is the attack angle of the pick, where are you picking between the sound hole and the bridge, what is the projectory of your strum (is it angled or perpendicular to the strings), do you accent the top, middle, or bottom strings...and many, many more (sometimes unconscious) variables.

All subtleties make a difference in tone.

Each of my guitars responds differently to all these variables, and I play the exact same music somewhat differently on each guitar to bring out the unique tone of the instrument.

If I haven't played a guitar for a few months it takes me a few weeks to get back my mojo on that guitar (slow learner).

Dedicate more time to that guitar you are fond of but that your "ears have grown away from." You might find that your subconscious + your ears + right hand collude to bring it's tone back into your favor.

[Alan Carruth]

'Tone' gets used in a number of different ways on these lists. When a maker or manufacturer talks about it, it's usually the built-in tone of the instrument itself. It's what you expect to hear when you pluck it in a certain way in a certain place. Guitars vary in that respect, and one of the ways they can be different is in what I call the 'center'.

Some guitars will only make one sound, or a very small range of sounds, no matter how you vary your attack. They have what I call a 'small center'. The sound they make can be very nice, and they can have a large dynamic range, but they don't sound 'different' when you play louder; they're just louder. Other guitars have a 'big center': they can produce a wide range of different timbres depending on how you play them. This can be subtle. Classical guitars never get as 'bright' as steel strings, simply because the strings won't do that, but within the range of timbres they can produce they can be very colorful. In fact, many Classical players feel that steel string guitars are limited in that respect, simply because they are always 'bright'. As one player said to me: "It's like watching Julie Andrews in 'The Sound of Music'; there's no darkness!"

A guitar like that can be difficult to play because you really need to be in control of your right hand technique. Small changes in where and how you pluck the strings alter the sound noticeably, so if you are not careful the tone and volume will be very uneven. OTOH, a good player can make one like that sing.

So, in the end, 'tone' depends on both the maker of the guitar and the player. A good player can get decent tone out of almost any instrument, but may need to pay more attention to technique then they'd like to, which can get in the way of musicality. Even a decent player with a very responsive guitar can have problems getting exactly the tone they want if the instrument is ahead of them. I often feel that the best situation is having a guitar that has a little lore tone in it than you can get out, so you're not struggling either way.

[charles Tauber]

To add to Alan's very good response, I suggest that whether or not the player has an effect on "tone", it depends.

First, I think it depends upon what you are expecting from the instrument and the music you play. If you aren't expecting great subtlety in the music you play, and don't employ technique to create that subtlety, then, no, the player hasn't much influence on the tone of the music that the guitar makes. If one is just going to whack the strings with a pick, without subtlety in technique, then there won't be much variation - one isn't travelling far from "center".

For classical guitarists, for example, it is all about subtlety of tone and the ability to make any one note or phrase sound different than the next. Doing so is part of the pallet for personal interpretation and expression. A large part of that is right hand technique, though there are other "tools" that are employed, such as on which string to play a particular note/pitch. (As an example, listen to the e note played as the first open string, the 5th fret second string and the 9th fret third string: each sounds different, though it has the same pitch.) As Alan noted, a good classical guitar - something somewhat different than a "nylon string" guitar - supports a large range - or centre, as Alan called it. Steel string guitars inherently have less range, but with the right technique can have considerable variation in tone.

The variation in tone for classical technique includes how close to the bridge one plucks, vs. how close to the fingerboard one plucks, whether to use a "rest" stroke vs. a "free" stroke - different techniques for plucking the string - as well as where on the nail the string is plucked. Of course how hard one plucks also enters into it. These same techniques can be used on steel string guitars to good effect. I don't play with a pick, but probably many of these effects can be achieved with how and where the pick plucks the string.

As Alan also noted, an "accomplished" player can make almost any guitar sound good. A "great" guitar allows the accomplished player a greater range of tonal possibilities - a larger "center". An "unaccomplished" player doesn't sound significantly better/different, regardless of how great their instrument - they are largely unable to access the tonal variation the instrument allows.

[muscmp]

do you notice that with your nylon string guitars also? they may not respond as much but will have some of that anyway.

play music!

[Todd Tipton]

There is already great information posted. I'll give my perspective on tone. Getting a great tone is one of the most important things a player can do. When this is achieved, even the most modest of guitars will sound reasonably well. On the other hand, the finest guitars in the world will fail to show their potential if a great tone is not present.

Great tone depends on a few things. First off, what do you think of as good tone? This is deeply personal. This is developed by not only listening to yourself, but to others as well. Over time, this perception changes as we continue to experiment and experience.

Another factor is the shape and condition of nail, pick, or whatever it is that makes contact with the strings. How the finger, nail or pick approaches the string is also most significant. The particular direction and the force used is also important. Lastly, where on the string contact is made is also very significant.

An idea that spoke well to me was how gradual or abruptly a nail or pick crosses the string. For example, imagine a pick barely making contact with the string. Also imagine that the path it follows is a 90 degree angle from the string. This is the the pick leaving the string as quickly and abruptly as possible. This yields a very bright and sharp attack. Those can be very good qualities. And, like choosing a particular section of the orchestra, can produce some very dramatic effects. However, it isn't good for a default tone. It sounds "tinny" and too bright. It quickly tires the listener.

On the other hand, imagine approaching the string with a very large surface area and using significantly less than a 45 degree angle from the string, almost attempting for the path the pick travels to be parallel with the strings. This is the pick leaving the string as slowly gradually as possible. This yields a very dark and warm attack. Again, that too can be a very good quality. And similarly, like choosing a particular section of the orchestra, can produce some very dramatic effects. However, it isn't good for a default tone. It too quickly tires the listener.

While a good default tone is deeply personal and unique, there are some similar qualities in most players that give us what we perceive as a good tone. The have some of those qualities of abrupt departure giving a strong, definite, and precise attack offering clarity to the note. Yet they also have some of the other qualities of the nail gradually leaving the string offering warmth and balance. This also gives the notes played projection: the ability for the sound waves to travel further and for the listener to better hear the playing.

The good default tone is produced by finding a neutral spot somewhere in the middle. No attempting to use all of the pick and trying to play almost parallel with the string. No attempting to use a very small amount of pick trying to play with a 90 degree angle. Rather, a roughly 45 degree angle is very close to producing a great tone. It is balance between too extremes.

If one is using nail and seated in a default classical position, the natural movement of flexing and extending the fingers compliment the path of a nail for a good default tone. If one is using a pick, that good default tone is produced by subtle shifts in the angle of the pick, again trying to find a balance between two extremes, and trying to yield some of the best qualities of both.

I want digress from what I am saying for a paragraph, because I think it is a good segue into another point that compliments everything I wrote above: The implication from me talking about good default tone suggested that we move from that default tone from time to time, or even very often. There are plenty of times we want very bright tones or very dark tones. If we have a good default tone (somewhere in the middle), then we have plenty of wiggle room in either direction, making it easier to quickly play very bright or warm tones. Playing significantly closer to the bridge also yields brighter tones. This can be used together with the abrupt leaving of the string to more easily produce some of the most striking and bright tones from the guitar. On the other hand, playing significantly further from the bridge produces warmer tones. When used with a gradual departure of the string, those most dramatic warm tones can more easily be achieved.

Where on the string in relation to the bridge should contact be made to yield a good default tone? I don't have my sources but relying on memory, it has been written even hundreds of years ago that roughly 1/6th of the distance of the string yields a good default tone. This is a spot that yields some of those sharp and bright qualities allowing for clarity of attack while also allowing the warmth of the instrument to come through as well. It is also a good neutral spot allowing for plenty of wiggle room moving in either direction of added brightness or warmth.

I suppose you could actually measure the playing length of the string. I do something a little different. I know a harmonic at the 12th fret is 1/2 the length of the string. A 7th fret harmonic is a third of the distance, the 5th fret is a fourth, and so forth. Using the sixth string and playing a harmonic that is just above the 3rd fret is the particular overtone that is exactly 1/6th of the playing length. I can also find that same harmonic on the other side of the string close to the bridge. This is 1/6th of the string. This is very close to the spot that will yield a great default tone.

I really want to clarify that every situation is unique. I use that word default because I think of it as a place to deviate from. It is not to suggest that we shouldn't be making use of all the tone colors possible on the guitar. In fact, I am suggesting just the opposite. By understanding where on a string produces a good middle ground, and by understanding how either my pick or nail also produces a good middle ground, I then have the freedom to make the most dramatic changes in tone frequently and often. It gives me the freedom to make the most dramatic changes in tone possible.

I want to mention something else I hear almost no one talk about. And, I'm embarrassed to say I have never heard a classical player talk about. Concerning that good default tone that is a distance of 1/6th of the string? That is only on open strings! Think about this one for a while. The higher our left hand is fretting, the closer our right hand needs to be to the bridge to compensate.

Again situation dictates. I'll give two extreme examples. Many times (maybe even most) I am playing notes high up on the neck on a 2nd or 3rd string that could be played on a 1st string. That is because I want[/B][/B] the warmer tones. By right hand will probably move to the left a bit to heighten the effect.

On the other hand, Imagine that I am playing lots of scales in a solo. I'm in the higher position because I am where I need to be to have access to the range of notes in the passage. I'm not trying to achieve a special effect. Rather, I'm up there because it is the only place I can get to all the notes I need. My right hand needs to be significantly closer to the bridge in order to still be roughly 1/6th of the distance of the string. Let me put it in a simple way: too many times, we hear players on the higher frets playing, but it is muddy and there is no clarity. The solution is to move the right hand closer to the bridge and listen.

I hope someone finds this post useful. Thanks for reading.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi, my search for "tone" started many years ago, and it was ,naturally focussed on the instruments.

After selecting your ideal instruments another discussion) youi start looking for the most appropriate accessories : strings first usually, then capo, straps maybe if inclined elecs., but the way tat you address the strings is also important and along with the other decisions , your choices are usually informed by your age, experience and, knowing what you want.

I've become a little obsessed with flatpicks (we call 'em plectrums) since the advent of the Bluechip phenomenon.

Seeking cheaper alternatives, I explored may other types which led me to discover my preferred shape, thickness and most importantly the advantage of the bevel.

There are differing aspects of a plectrum - and thickness or material are not the only factors.

The tonal aspects are , I believe, mass, geometry of the contact point, and the friction created by the contact.

Ideally, for me, there should be optimum (not maximum) attack (that little click when the pick and string make contact) the optimum ( a minimal flex but not rigid) firmness to move the string, and the speed in which the pick passes over the string (this is about material, and geometry.
Despite my lengthy researches, I have found nothing better than the Blue Chip material, the 346 triangle shape TAD) and the beveling, but, others come close e.g. Wegen (which I suspect are casein but he won't tell me) and I am still experimenting with finishing Dunlop tortex purples (1.14 m/m ) and D'Andrea proplec 1.5 m/m picks, but I doubt they will ever be faster or as hardwearing as BC picks.