Intro to triad chords, updated

[mattbn73]

Originally Posted by s0cks

How did you relate that to your melody playing?

I spent a solid few weeks on triads and voice leading. I could see the potential, but then I came to conclusion that I really needed to start just learning more songs, building a repertoire and (along the way) building my left/right hand technique (I was getting mighty bored of the songs I already knew).

I also found that moving between triads was cool, sounded good, but lacked melody, because the melody often separates itself from the triad. It seemed more useful to me to understand the intervals across all six strings for the chord of the moment, as limiting myself to 3 or 4 adjacent strings was... well... a limitation. Often I wanted a lower bass note, or even an open string involved.

Don't get me wrong, triads are freaking cool, and it's still been complementary to my fretboard knowledge but for fingerstyle solo arrangements I didn't see them quite as useful. They seem more useful as an accompaniment to other instruments/vocals or as a tool for soloing.

I'm probably totally wrong here, so please correct me!

You have to use melodic extensions .

I ONLY use triads in a melodic context basically. Like you, I don't have enough patience for that kind of thing otherwise. Triads are the basis for me to play chord melody , especially in a non jazz context.

But it does require learning to voice the extensions as well. Root, third , fifth are covered by basic triads. Now, play your basic root position minor, and you have a major voicing with the 6th in the melody. Root, 3rd, 5th and 6th are kind of my starting reference point for basic chord melody using triads. From there, to voice extensions, add your next diatonic note above the highest pitch, replacing it in the melodic voice. 9th replaces root, 11th (4th) replaces 3rd, 13th (6 th) replaces the 5th, and 7th replace the 6th. Of course, you can do this with all cords on each scale degree - major, minor, diminished – as well.

This gives you a three-note voicing for each scale degree.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

How did you relate that to your melody playing?

I spent a solid few weeks on triads and voice leading. I could see the potential, but then I came to conclusion that I really needed to start just learning more songs, building a repertoire and (along the way) building my left/right hand technique (I was getting mighty bored of the songs I already knew).

I also found that moving between triads was cool, sounded good, but lacked melody, because the melody often separates itself from the triad. It seemed more useful to me to understand the intervals across all six strings for the chord of the moment, as limiting myself to 3 or 4 adjacent strings was... well... a limitation. Often I wanted a lower bass note, or even an open string involved.

Don't get me wrong, triads are freaking cool, and it's still been complementary to my fretboard knowledge but for fingerstyle solo arrangements I didn't see them quite as useful. They seem more useful as an accompaniment to other instruments/vocals or as a tool for soloing.

I'm probably totally wrong here, so please correct me!

I'm sure I can't correct you on anything. I can only say how it's working for me. I'm a songwriter/composer, so I'm not particularly devoted to learning other people's songs to the level that I'd need to in order to perform. I do other people's songs, but really just to learn techniques and to satisfy my friends and family at a sing along.

So, I primarily use this for improvisation as well as to give me a very solid feel for how the chords fit together. I mean, I really didn't see before how closely related/overlapping Cmajor/Em/Fmajor/Am are until I saw them played in triads all in the same 3x3-fret space. (I've only been studying guitar a year.) What's happening now is that I am developing new chord progressions and melodies in this small space that then carry over across all 6 strings. After all, the shapes are the same, they are just portions of the larger chords. And most of the time, when we play chord/melody, the melody notes come from these higher strings, I think.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't see melodies in this area. The whole scale is there repeated 3 times in 12 frets and the shapes fit together all down the neck, so... yeah, I don't know about that part. I think of this smaller space as sort of a sketchpad for doodling on. It's opened up all sorts of ideas, new fingerings, new insights and it's given me a solid knowledge of that section of the fretboard that I really didn't have before because I'd focused on notes on the three low strings, as most of us do when we begin, I think.

Oh, one other advantage. These strings are the same tuning as a baritone uke. Now I want one.

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

You have to use melodic extensions .

I ONLY use triads in a melodic context basically. Like you, I don't have enough patience for that kind of thing otherwise. Triads are the basis for me to play chord melody , especially in a non jazz context.

But it does require learning to voice the extensions as well. Root, third , fifth are covered by basic triads. Now, play your basic root position minor, and you have a major voicing with the 6th in the melody. Root, 3rd, 5th and 6th are kind of my starting reference point for basic chord melody using triads. From there, to voice extensions, add your next diatonic note above the highest pitch, replacing it in the melodic voice. 9th replaces root, 11th (4th) replaces 3rd, 13th (6 th) replaces the 5th, and 7th replace the 6th. Of course, you can do this with all cords on each scale degree - major, minor, diminished – as well.

This gives you a three-note voicing for each scale degree.

Right, so an Am triad could also really be a C6 with the 5th neglected? IS that what you're saying? I get that. But I'm not sure what you mean in your next bit?

I understand, for example, that to cycle up a 3rd, you just lower the root note one degree. Or to cycle down a 3rd you move the 5th up one degree.

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I'm not sure why you wouldn't see melodies in this area. The whole scale is there repeated 3 times in 12 frets and the shapes fit together all down the neck, so... yeah, I don't know about that part. I think of this smaller space as sort of a sketchpad for doodling on. It's opened up all sorts of ideas, new fingerings, new insights and it's given me a solid knowledge of that section of the fretboard that I really didn't have before because I'd focused on notes on the three low strings, as most of us do when we begin, I think.

Because the melody is single notes right (well I guess you can add harmony like the 3rd, or 6th)? So while I'm playing over a G chord for example, chances are my melody will venture out of the root, 3rd, or 5th. So I'm guessing here, that you see the triads all connected together, and in other words, you're seeing the scale notes available in that hand position. So is that really any different to seeing the intervals across all 6 strings like so (assuming in the below case, your root is on the 6th/1st strings like G @ 3rd fret):

E| b7| 7 | R | b2| 2 |
B| 4 | b5| 5 | b6| 6 |
G| b2| 2 | b3| 3 | 4 |
D| b6| 6 | b7| 7 | R |
A| b3| 3 | 4 | b5| 5 |
E| b7| 7 | R | b2| 2 |

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

Because the melody is single notes right (well I guess you can add harmony like the 3rd, or 6th)? So while I'm playing over a G chord for example, chances are my melody will venture out of the root, 3rd, or 5th. So I'm guessing here, that you see the triads all connected together, and in other words, you're seeing the scale notes available in that hand position. So is that really any different to seeing the intervals across all 6 strings like so (assuming in the below case, your root is on the 6th/1st strings like G @ 3rd fret):

E| b7| 7 | R | b2| 2 |
B| 4 | b5| 5 | b6| 6 |
G| b2| 2 | b3| 3 | 4 |
D| b6| 6 | b7| 7 | R |
A| b3| 3 | 4 | b5| 5 |
E| b7| 7 | R | b2| 2 |

No, essentially, it's not different. It's just a different perspective. What you show here shows the relationship of all the notes to the root. I'm looking at it as a small space where the chords are closely overlapping. I'm finding melodies in them, sometimes playing these triads "fingerstyle" for example, but shifting the "pattern" to follow the root. If the melody "ventures out" of one chord, it's just "venturing in" to a new chord which is what we do in fingerstyle anyway as far as I can tell. Again for the most part, this made all of this more accessible for me. Not different, essentially, just easier.

I don't know, but if you play a chord/melody fingerstyle solo type piece, don't the majority of the melody notes come from these higher strings? When I look at tabs, that's what I see.

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

No, essentially, it's not different. It's just a different perspective. What you show here shows the relationship of all the notes to the root. I'm looking at it as a small space where the chords are closely overlapping. I'm finding melodies in them, sometimes playing these triads "fingerstyle" for example, but shifting the "pattern" to follow the root. If the melody "ventures out" of one chord, it's just "venturing in" to a new chord which is what we do in fingerstyle anyway as far as I can tell. Again for the most part, this made all of this more accessible for me. Not different, essentially, just easier.

I don't know, but if you play a chord/melody fingerstyle solo type piece, don't the majority of the melody notes come from these higher strings? When I look at tabs, that's what I see.

Usually, but not always. It can sometimes venture down to the 4th or even 5th string. Depends on the range of the melody.

I think the conflict for me is that the melody doesn't always stay within the chord triad. It will almost always have at least one chord tone in common, but it also ventures into other territory like the 2nd, 4th and 6th. Or it might contain a chord tone an octave higher.

Maybe I'm just not understanding you. I'm always keen to learn more ways to visualize things. Perhaps you can give a tabbed example of something? Pretty please? Or not even a tab, just some diagram of what you are seeing visually.

[FwL]

Originally Posted by amyFB

The the low note groups are EVIL shapes to form. I made that chart also and never use it.

I typically form the four string shape and then choose the appropriate strings to hit as the song progresses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not sure what you find evil about triad shapes on the lower strings:

 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|-5-|---|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|---|-R-|---|---|-


 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|-R-|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|-


 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|-R-|---|---|---|-
 ||---|---|---|-5-|---|---|---|-

[mattbn73]

Originally Posted by s0cks

Usually, but not always. It can sometimes venture down to the 4th or even 5th string. Depends on the range of the melody.

I think the conflict for me is that the melody doesn't always stay within the chord triad. It will almost always have at least one chord tone in common, but it also ventures into other territory like the 2nd, 4th and 6th. Or it might contain a chord tone an octave higher.

Maybe I'm just not understanding you. I'm always keen to learn more ways to visualize things. Perhaps you can give a tabbed example of something? Pretty please? [emoji14] Or not even a tab, just some diagram of what you are seeing visually.

Melodic playing over a single G major chord. With extensions or "non-chord tones ". Name that tune..

XXX12.12.12
XXX12.12.10

XXX787
XXX788
XXX787
XXX435
XXX433
XXX787

XX543X
XX545X
XXX433

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

Melodic playing over a single G major chord. With extensions or "non-chord tones ". Name that tune..

XXX12.12.12
XXX12.12.10

XXX787
XXX788
XXX787
XXX435
XXX433
XXX787

XX543X
XX545X
XXX433

I'm not with my guitar right now, but I see what you are saying here. All of these are based off G major triad shapes. That's ok, but what about when you want to move beyond simply 3 strings? Would you not imply a chord progression using notes on the lower strings?

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

Maybe I'm just not understanding you. I'm always keen to learn more ways to visualize things. Perhaps you can give a tabbed example of something? Pretty please? Or not even a tab, just some diagram of what you are seeing visually.

Sure. In PM.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

I think the conflict for me is that the melody doesn't always stay within the chord triad. It will almost always have at least one chord tone in common, but it also ventures into other territory like the 2nd, 4th and 6th. Or it might contain a chord tone an octave higher.

But when it "ventures out" it's just moving to a new triad. If it moves to the 2nd, 4th and 6th that's the ii triad. That's what chord progressions are, the melody ventures out and triads are formed around those notes to harmonize, right?

And as far as adding more strings, all these shapes are the bottom half (top strings) of chord shapes you already know. Sure put the low strings back on if you like.

[mattbn73]

Originally Posted by s0cks

I'm not with my guitar right now, but I see what you are saying here. All of these are based off G major triad shapes. That's ok, but what about when you want to move beyond simply 3 strings? Would you not imply a chord progression using notes on the lower strings?

Sure. It's just one starting point. It gives you something definitive to play every given melody/chord combinations. They don't force you to "magically" forget everything you've previously learned or anything, but more than likely, they'll give you solutions to common problems or holes in harmonizing melody.

Most approaches for harmonizing melody on guitar are generally more random. The melody is often a separate entity with the harmony underneath being comprised of "whatever notes you can get together in that position", as opposed to the way melodies are harmonized on the piano for example.

Triad based melodies generally voice lead pretty well and very often sound pretty solid all by themselves. As far as lower notes or more complete chords, of course . You fill in with whatever you can. That kind of assumes that you're not playing without other musicians though, and that's not always the case either.

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

But when it "ventures out" it's just moving to a new triad. If it moves to the 2nd, 4th and 6th that's the ii triad. That's what chord progressions are, the melody ventures out and triads are formed around those notes to harmonize, right?

But the melody is just a single note, how you choose to harmonize it is up to you right? You could be playing E triad 2nd inversion XXX454, and your melody note on the 1st string moves up half a step. You could continue to stay within the E triad XXX455, or you could move to the IV triad XXX655, or you could move to the vii (dim) triad XXX445 (or XXX875).

So where the melody ventures and where the harmony venture are open to interpretation.

To be honest I think we are really seeing the same thing. The difference is that I shift the intervals based on the chord that's currently being played. So if I was playing Gmaj, I automatically see the intervals in relation to that chord. Then, lets say the song moves to the IV chord which would be C, I then see the intervals in relation to that chord.

It sounds like you instead stay within the key regardless of chord. So where I play a IV chord in a major progression I see the major 3rd and 5th in relation to that chord (R,3,5). It sounds like you see it as playing 4,6,R of the original key.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

To be honest I think we are really seeing the same thing. The difference is that I shift the intervals based on the chord that's currently being played. So if I was playing Gmaj, I automatically see the intervals in relation to that chord. Then, lets say the song moves to the IV chord which would be C, I then see the intervals in relation to that chord.

It sounds like you instead stay within the key regardless of chord. So where I play a IV chord in a major progression I see the major 3rd and 5th in relation to that chord (R,3,5). It sounds like you see it as playing 4,6,R of the original key.

We are definitely both aware of the same descriptive theory. If you remember, you first asked how I used this in my melody playing - for me, this whole triad, high string foray thing was about improvisation, meaning I wanted to be able to do this spontaneously on the fly. So what we are describing here is that fluent, blending between one chord and the next as the melody moves. Once the I chord changes to the IV chord, I, too, see the root and intervals in relation to it. But on the way to that chord, this way of looking at the "triads" as all part of the same scale is one way I found to seamlessly, fluenty make that shift. The chords in fact do flow into each other. This just let me see it more clearly.

[mattbn73]

I very much share Amy's thoughts re triads. The importance of the study of triads (and especially their use in creating melody and harmony simultaneously) has quickly moved to the top of my list of things I would go back and tell my younger self if I could.

I honestly think it's difficult to appreciate all of the intangible implications of learning more with triads, without actually working on them some yourself. I understand resistance to it, as I felt the same for a long time. I had often heard that it was something I "should do" for some kind of vague reasons, but found the process of doing anything with them a kind of drudgery. The process wasn't worth the possible future benefit for me.

I kind of fell back into it accidentally a couple years ago . I had started playing a lot of chord melody in a Jazz style, with extended harmony. The thing is, those fuller chords , like major and minor sevenths etc, are actually much EASIER to make an arrangement out of , even on-the-fly, from a lead sheet or whatever. I was slightly irritated that this seemed MORE difficult in tunes with SIMPLER harmony. I finally arrived at the notion of triads basically being the framework for doing this with simpler harmony.

Well, the thing is, once I started using them in a melodic context, the drudgery went away and they were really enjoyable, musically, in their own right. You're kind of learning triads and learning more about the fretboard , almost as an unintended consequence of playing real music and tunes.

There are a implications for a lot of areas honestly: all melodic playing up the neck benefits from it, general fretboard knowledge. Intros , endings and other instrumental breaks for vocal tunes don't require as much random "working out". Voice leading is a little more easily addressed and can be a realistic consideration most of the time.

I don't know if I'm a peculiar geek about this. Probably so. I think some of it began for me, about 25 years ago , when I learned the bridge to Stairway to Heaven. "Makes you wonder..."

I mean the beginning sections are "right of passage" stuff, very iconic solo-guitar - the kind of thing you really want to have under your fingers, but the BRIDGE has its own appeal. It's basic rhythm strumming, like you'd do in open position, but the chords themselves create this great melody. I remember thinking at the time, "All of guitar playing should be like this/should feel like this".

The triad stuff has gotten me a lot closer to that as a reality. The easy possible addition of a melody atop any rhythm strumming is worth it alone. Wish I had played more this way all along.

Great discussion.

[Wyllys]

Matt...

I think any difficulty with expressing a melody utilizing triads may well be related to limiting triads to three neighboring strings. Since a triad is by definition a set of three tones, you're free to "expand" them as you require. I "stretch" them out using alternating strings...or as needed. Example:

C major triad 3 x 2 x 1 x or x 3 x 0 x 0 / x 3 5 x 5 x or x x 2 x 1 3

Continuing: x x 5 x 5 8 or x 7 x x 8 8

I also find that using 6th's and 7th's can be valued as much for ease of fingering in the flow of playing as for the harmonic shading and movement.

It's all about options and choices. IME, there are too many to count and a wealth to discover...