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  #46  
Old 01-26-2017, 06:18 PM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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When I was playing classical guitar and frequently sight reading from music scores I got pretty good at knowing what note was on what fret. In that context it is required and thus one learns it. When playing by ear and/or composing something I am more into chord shapes, for example major and minor 7th, m7b5, etc. and finding a melody line (which could use any chromatic note).

Those who write their own music, and/or are winging something spontaneously tend to use their own preferred patterns, chords and sequences. For example within a few measures I can hear in a composition what is characteristic of someone like Doyle Dykes or James Taylor.
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  #47  
Old 01-26-2017, 06:46 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
When I was playing classical guitar and frequently sight reading from music scores I got pretty good at knowing what note was on what fret. In that context it is required and thus one learns it. When playing by ear and/or composing something I am more into chord shapes, for example major and minor 7th, m7b5, etc. and finding a melody line (which could use any chromatic note).

Those who write their own music, and/or are winging something spontaneously tend to use their own preferred patterns, chords and sequences. For example within a few measures I can hear in a composition what is characteristic of someone like Doyle Dykes or James Taylor.
This makes sense to me. I dabbled in classical guitar (i.e. self-taught, but not having the discipline of a teacher or college degree program), and that is where I learned to read and picked up the classical approach to holding the guitar and not planting fingers on the guitar top. All good stuff to know.

Outside of that, my learning was largely by ear and some books.

When playing in a band, there is no time to figure anything out on the fretboard. You are essentially in a conversation with the other musicians, and just as in conversation with another person, you can't whip out a dictionary to figure out what to say, neither can you do the equivalent on the bandstand. In that case, just as in conversation, you have to know the vocabulary that works with the style of music being played. That vocabulary is just like the verbal patterns we use in conversation.

Personally, I find using my ears to learn, far easier than printed materials. At this poit in my life, reading, whether for piano or guitar, is too frustrating, while the ear seems natural (i.e. music is a HEARING art to me). Being able to read has helped me over the years in various situations, but it is clearly my second choice.

Given these things, I agree with what you have said.

Tony
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  #48  
Old 01-27-2017, 01:11 AM
FwL FwL is offline
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I agree, which is why I advocate my students learn to do just that. I firmly believe that no knowledge is a waste but it's how you apply it that is important. However, my point was directed at those that suggest that learning something like CAGED is limiting when it is not the system that is limiting, it's the players own inadequacies holding them back. The truth is learning patters is an important part of playing any instrument and shouldn't be dismissed.


Oh, I assure you my skills are at the very least "adequate" despite your beloved CAGED system.


As to patterns being an important part of playing any instrument, while it's impossible to avoid patterns entirely when dealing with music, I think you'd be hard pressed to name any instrumentalists besides a certain segment of the guitar playing community who obsess over things like CAGED systems.
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  #49  
Old 01-27-2017, 04:19 AM
Shimmy Shimmy is offline
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Oh, I assure you my skills are at the very least "adequate" despite your beloved CAGED system.


As to patterns being an important part of playing any instrument, while it's impossible to avoid patterns entirely when dealing with music, I think you'd be hard pressed to name any instrumentalists besides a certain segment of the guitar playing community who obsess over things like CAGED systems.
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Sorry if you took my using the word "inadequacies" as an insult to you, that was not the intention in what I was saying. Maybe it wasn't the best choice of words, but I was trying to say that, from my experience, people who say things like CAGED, or any other system, makes them feel constrained might not really have practiced it enough for it to be second nature, or maybe practiced too much on each box in seperation as opposed to learning to transition and see it as a whole, or neglected ear training, or phrasing, or harmonic understanding, or a slew of other things that are just as likely, if not more likely, of making them feel "constrained" musically. None of that is the fault of the system.

I'm not obsessed or some CAGED groupie by the way. I'm generally interested in all the different systems and how different people see the fingerboard in so many ways. I find it fascinating, especially as a cellist because with that there is one very precsibed way of seeing the notes on the fingerboard. That is true of most other instruments. However, classical musicians practice scales religiously, in varying forms, and the fingering becomes so engrained that when you encounter a piece in a certain key, you've practiced the most efficient way of navigating that key. Patterns play a big part, as when sight reading lots of notes at tempo, you will fall back on that more than attempting the futility of naming each note in turn when playing 16th notes at a high tempo. You learn to take notes in groups and recognise melodic patterns.

I do use the CAGED system with my students and find it successful, but now generally in my own playing use more of a mix of the ACE approach, Segovia scales but primarily chord tones.

As to the last part of your post, I don't really understand what you're getting at. The guitar IS quite unique in a lot of ways, and there are plenty of fabulous guitarists who use the CAGED approach, but it is a very small part of what makes them great players overall.
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  #50  
Old 01-27-2017, 07:23 AM
MC5C MC5C is offline
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I participated in a trial (for my friends Masters thesis) on learning the fretboard using various published systems. There were around 15 of us, we each got a system per week, and did a test after. We practiced the system for 20 minutes a day, timed and logged. The test was a timed exercise of playing two named notes on each string, which is harder to do than you would think. Six strings, two notes each selected randomly except that all 12 notes were used, none was duplicated.

CAGED was part of it, various classical methods, every scale pattern there is, around 15 different systems all published in method books or used in teaching. The idea was to see which, if any, allowed for an improvement in knowing where the notes were on the fretboard. I wasn't surprised to find out at the end that none of them did much more than teach a skill in doing whatever the exercise of the week was. My personal performance in the timed test got better after a few weeks, peaked, and got worse at the end. So did almost everyone.

One of the points I made in my comments was that almost none of the systems did more than teach patterns. Almost all of them ignored the names of the notes, and since the test depended on knowing the names of the notes we didn't improve at that. A half-dozen professional jazz players and classical players (superb pro players) did the test, and they averaged about twice as fast as the normal people - they really knew where the notes were on the fretboard and it seemed important to how they played when they improvised. My personal take-away was that I still didn't know the fretboard any better after than before, but my playing was a lot better - I had really learned a lot of patterns! And that while you can do an awful lot with patterns, maybe all you will ever need to know, that for an improvising player there is another step above patterns that involves an intuitive understanding of each note on the fretboard and it's relationship to all the others.
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  #51  
Old 01-31-2017, 03:43 AM
MikeBodd MikeBodd is offline
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Very informative. Thanks
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  #52  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:53 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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The note finding exercise that I got from Ted Greene's book is not really a system, nor is it patterns. Instead, it is about knowing where the individual notes are all over the fretboard - by name. It is painless - only a few minutes a day, and over a period of several weeks, an image of the freboard begins to emerge. Many people either think the approach is too simple to be of any use, or they are too impatient.

A few weeks may seem too long, but by taking it in very small chunks of finding just one randomly picked note per day, it gives the whole process time to soak in. Trying to speed up the process to get it done in a week, simply is an illusion. It takes time to ingrain this information, and attempts to speed that up, simply result in frustration. We can go around and around about this stuff in threads like this, but that doesn't change a thing.

Think of it like watering a lawn. If you gradually let water soak in, it will "take" and the lawn benefits. If you just dump water on it, most of it just runs off. Our brains are like that when taking in a sizable chunk of new information, such as the layout of the fretboard.

We seem to want everything right now, and will go to any lengths to find a system that promises to give us just that. Yet, oddly enough, we inherently know this approach doesn't work, yet it is the only thing we will accept. There are lots of folks out there ready and perfectly willing to sell us whatever we demand in the form of books, DVDs, online sites, all with the promise of delivering just that - the newest, fastest method and short-cut to achieve our goals. The problem is that we can buy all of these we want, but we are still looking for the one that will finally work. It simply doesn't exist. There is no system that can substitute for just doing the work.

In the end, folks will choose to try one or more of the approaches discussed here, or not. The "or not" will probably be asking about this subject again in the future. It does crop up every few years and runs pretty much the same course it has here.

Tony
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  #53  
Old 01-31-2017, 06:17 PM
Shimmy Shimmy is offline
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I don't really understand what the fuss is about, Ted Greene's idea is effective and works. As you said, it just takes some time but it's worth doing. Just to point out, I never once said or suggested it's a waste of time or ineffective. I was just pointing out that it's wrong to say that "patterns" or "systems" are limiting to musicianship as was suggested. It's one of those things I see regurgitated on here from time to time and it's as silly as the whole "I don't want to learn theory as it stifles creativity" stuff. Learning the note names won't magically make you "free", neither will any system. That only comes from years of dedicated practice and musical experience. Why did the pros do better in that test? Because usually they have played more and practiced harder, with a real focus, than those who aren't pros. I know every note on a cello instinctively without having to think, how? By playing it for 29 years and studying for a degree where I was practicing 10 hours a day and performing all the time. I still usually practice a few hours a day (although now it's generally guitar) even though I teach and have a toddler to look after.

I do, however, apologise to the OP for derailing the thread!
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  #54  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:33 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
I don't really understand what the fuss is about, Ted Greene's idea is effective and works. As you said, it just takes some time but it's worth doing. Just to point out, I never once said or suggested it's a waste of time or ineffective. I was just pointing out that it's wrong to say that "patterns" or "systems" are limiting to musicianship as was suggested. It's one of those things I see regurgitated on here from time to time and it's as silly as the whole "I don't want to learn theory as it stifles creativity" stuff. Learning the note names won't magically make you "free", neither will any system. That only comes from years of dedicated practice and musical experience. Why did the pros do better in that test? Because usually they have played more and practiced harder, with a real focus, than those who aren't pros. I know every note on a cello instinctively without having to think, how? By playing it for 29 years and studying for a degree where I was practicing 10 hours a day and performing all the time. I still usually practice a few hours a day (although now it's generally guitar) even though I teach and have a toddler to look after.

I do, however, apologise to the OP for derailing the thread!
I don't believe that I was specifically addressing you, but instead this thread in general. As I said, this thread comes up from time to time, runs pretty much the same trajectory, and then gets asked all over again. Also, rather than specifically saying that Ted Greene's approach is the way to go, I said any of the approaches being discussed here.

Please don't make a fuss here in this thread. It really isn't necessary, nor is it called for.

Thanks,

Tony
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Last edited by tbeltrans; 01-31-2017 at 09:21 PM.
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  #55  
Old 02-01-2017, 02:45 AM
Shimmy Shimmy is offline
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I'm not, I was taking part in a discussion, isn't that what this place is for? I've been polite and apologised for the one time someone took something I said as some kind of personal attack when in fact it was a general observation. But, as you wish, I won't post in this thread again and leave you to it.

Just to add, also one of the best and tested ways of learning notes on the fretboard is to learn some basic notation. I use books of single melody folk songs, jazz standards, etc. Then, everyday, take a short melody or section and practice finding and playing it all over the guitar but be mindful of actually knowing every note you play. The key is to not stay on one melody for too long, it needs to be more of a sight read9ng exercise in that respect. It kills two birds with one stone, you get to know your notes and you get some basic reading skills in the process.
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  #56  
Old 02-01-2017, 07:18 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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I'm not, I was taking part in a discussion, isn't that what this place is for? I've been polite and apologised for the one time someone took something I said as some kind of personal attack when in fact it was a general observation. But, as you wish, I won't post in this thread again and leave you to it.

Just to add, also one of the best and tested ways of learning notes on the fretboard is to learn some basic notation. I use books of single melody folk songs, jazz standards, etc. Then, everyday, take a short melody or section and practice finding and playing it all over the guitar but be mindful of actually knowing every note you play. The key is to not stay on one melody for too long, it needs to be more of a sight read9ng exercise in that respect. It kills two birds with one stone, you get to know your notes and you get some basic reading skills in the process.

I don't know what your problem here is, but that (in bold) is not what I said. No personal attacks from me. Please just stop this. I don't understand what you are on about here, but there is really no reason for it. I said that in my last post and thought maybe you would just stop there.

Thanks,

Tony
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  #57  
Old 02-02-2017, 08:55 AM
hovishead hovishead is offline
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My take on this is.

1 There is only one fret between E and F and between B and C.
2 There are two frets between all the other notes.
3 In between notes are sharp of the fret below and/or flat of the fret above. (the key signature determines which)
4 The open strings are E, A, D, G, B and E.

Extrapolation of this information will give you the name of any note on the fretboard. Use this when you need it and you will eventually have all the fretboard knowledge you need.

However,

If you don't need it what is the point of learning it?

If you are in a band and someone says " F is too high. We need to take it down to Eb." Then knowing the names of the notes on the fretboard is going to be essential. Presumably you already know how to play the piece, you just need to start playing it two frets lower, or somewhere else. If you are not at the stage of learning where you have a repertoire of songs or tunes to play then knowing the names of notes on the whole of the fretboard is of no use. It is useless knowledge, or wasted effort.

If you can't play the music in the first place, knowing what key you are in isn't going to help.

There is a time to learn stuff. That is when you need it. Beware of inexperienced teachers who, being enamoured of some advanced knowledge or technique, attempt to teach it to pupils who are not ready. It never gets good results.
I agree with this. The learning of the notes is something that should only be allocated a little time each day. It's a gradual process that one shouldn't beat themselves up over. I don't agree with forcing early stage students to learn the entire fret-board (that aren't at the point where they need to know it) either.
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  #58  
Old 02-02-2017, 08:58 AM
MikeBodd MikeBodd is offline
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I really like that stanron
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  #59  
Old 02-02-2017, 09:26 AM
stanron stanron is offline
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Cheers guys.
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  #60  
Old 02-02-2017, 12:01 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by hovishead View Post
I agree with this. The learning of the notes is something that should only be allocated a little time each day. It's a gradual process that one shouldn't beat themselves up over. I don't agree with forcing early stage students to learn the entire fret-board (that aren't at the point where they need to know it) either.
I agree with both you and Stanron (you quoted his post, but it didn't show up in your quote here). Especially, the part about learning a little at at time and letting it soak in...this is really important, whatever method a person chooses to learn it. As with many aspects of guitar, there are certainly many approaches. Pick one that suits your learning style.

Tony
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