Significance of a Dovetail Neck Joint

[dneal]

There are great sounding guitars with dovetails.
There are great sounding guitars with bolts.
Therefore, the type of neck joint probably isn't a factor for whether or not a guitar sounds great.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by dneal

There are great sounding guitars with dovetails.
There are great sounding guitars with bolts.
Therefore, the type of neck joint probably isn't a factor for whether or not a guitar sounds great.

Very compact, succinct post! And your 2000th!

- Glenn

[vintageom]

I own guitars with both neck attachment systems. Of all of my guitars, my Santa Cruz and Martin guitars vibrate most in my fretting hand. One Santa Cruz almost tickles my hand, as it vibrates so much.

My Taylors and Collings and Bourgeois models do not have as pronounced vibration in my fretting hand. But that was not a reason for my choices, just an observation on my particular guitars.

I own each of them for their unique voices and enjoy them all.

I am fully aware of the cost of resetting dovetail neck joints, so when I am considering buying a dovetail model, I make sure to check the neck angle, saddle height, string heights above the top in front of the bridge...and make sure the guitar is far from a reset. ESPECIALLY the case for buying used guitars with dovetails.

Bolt-on necks eliminate some of this concern, as resets are fast, cheap and easy.

I think also that the price point of a guitar can be a factor to consider on a dovetail, since the cost of a neck reset may represent a high percentage of the guitar's value.

[terrapin]

Interesting! I going to feel for that.

Originally Posted by vintageom

I own guitars with both neck attachment systems. Of all of my guitars, my Santa Cruz and Martin guitars vibrate most in my fretting hand. One Santa Cruz almost tickles my hand, as it vibrates so much.

My Taylors and Collings and Bourgeois models do not have as pronounced vibration in my fretting hand. But that was not a reason for my choices, just an observation on my particular guitars.

I own each of them for their unique voices and enjoy them all.

I am fully aware of the cost of resetting dovetail neck joints, so when I am considering buying a dovetail model, I make sure to check the neck angle, saddle height, string heights above the top in front of the bridge...and make sure the guitar is far from a reset. ESPECIALLY the case for buying used guitars with dovetails.

Bolt-on necks eliminate some of this concern, as resets are fast, cheap and easy.

I think also that the price point of a guitar can be a factor to consider on a dovetail, since the cost of a neck reset may represent a high percentage of the guitar's value.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Very compact, succinct post! And your 2000th!

- Glenn

Love it!

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

Here's a quick visual guide for this discussion:

Left to right: Dovetail, Mortise and tendon (aka straight tendon), & bolt-on:

Tenon. Tendons connect your muscles to your bones.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

I would like a luthier that does an excellent job on my guitar if I'm paying $6000 for it. And that includes the neck joint. The luthier's skills are what you are paying for. So I want as much of his talent and skills as I can get. The wood is not that expensive compared to the cost of a finished guitar. Anyone can tighten a bolt.


Peace

Once you have the jig set up, anyone can run a dovetail router bit around it. It's not really any more difficult than an M&T or indexed butt joint.

But by your reasoning, you'll be glad you are paying more for a dovetail neck reset. Takes more experience and time than a more serviceable bolt on, with more risk to the repair.

Think of all those bolt-on necks dovetail Larrivée made for Taylor. I don't know any builders who don't recognize the merits and detriments of each joint to the point of being ideologues over the matter like buyers sometimes are.

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

Here's a quick visual guide for this discussion:

Left to right: Dovetail, Mortise and tendon (aka straight tendon), & bolt-on:

Tenon, not tendon.

And the one on the left looks like it has flat sides, rather than angled, so I'm not sure it's actually a dovetail as opposed to just a mortise and tenon joint with a funny shape.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by rogthefrog

And the one on the left looks like it has flat sides, rather than angled, so I'm not sure it's actually a dovetail as opposed to just a mortise and tenon joint with a funny shape.

It's a proper dovetail. 10 degrees.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

A dovetail is lightweight, elegant, and stable. It also allows for a more elegantly sculpted heel. If given a choice, I vastly prefer dovetail construction. However, I won't turn my nose up at a guitar just because of a bolt-on neck. My Proulx OM/D is a fine instrument, as is my Weber Big Sky.

That said, some versions of bolt-on necks such as the Bourgeois shown above and Taylor N/T neck have a lot of hardware and structure to support the design. Too much hardware can change the balance of a guitar in ways that I do not particularly like.

Too much hardware, Todd ? Do forgive me, but it just seems somewhat ironic that a man who plays vintage Martins which have half a ton of steel girder inside the neck turns up his nose at a couple of tiny bolts in the neck joint.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Once you have the jig set up, anyone can run a dovetail router bit around it. It's not really any more difficult than an M&T or indexed butt

If only this were true!

[BrunoBlack]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

If only this were true!

What do you think???

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

If only this were true!

Once you have a solid jig, you think so? What's the substantial difference with milling and fitting a M&T, or aligning pins and bolt holes? You have to mill the same neck offset in each and need comparable jigs. Bolt on is admittedly easier and faster assembly, but I wouldn't say in any substantial manner.

As a one off, yes agree the DT and M&T joints are more finicky than bolt on. But don't see that's really the case when you have a good permanent jig set up for any of them.

There's something about me that prefers the dovetail just in how its geometry pulls the joint in as it comes together and the matching faces of the joint counter the pull forces on the neck. There's a certain poetry to it. But then again, bolts have the same capacity for tightness of fit and sufficient stability. Numbers vs. emotion.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Because we are talking about wood all machining operations are merely approximate.

The mating surface of the upper bout to the neck is not a flat surface if aesthetics are involved, at least my aesthetics. It is curved, and the heel of the neck not only tapers, but is usually not a straight line. This makes machining the join with reliable precision virtually impossible, and it makes more sense to hand fit it, even it a production line. Additionally, in my shop, since every guitar is unique and I do not attempt to make build geometry more accurate than within a degree or two, the final fitting of the dovetail is where I establish the actual geometry of the neck to bridge relationship. I seriously doubt I am alone in this approach, and it is a very exacting and hard won skill.

[dneal]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Once you have a solid jig, you think so? What's the substantial difference with milling and fitting a M&T, or aligning pins and bolt holes? You have to mill the same neck offset in each and need comparable jigs. Bolt on is admittedly easier and faster assembly, but I wouldn't say in any substantial manner.

As a one off, yes agree the DT and M&T joints are more finicky than bolt on. But don't see that's really the case when you have a good permanent jig set up for any of them.

There's something about me that prefers the dovetail just in how its geometry pulls the joint in as it comes together and the matching faces of the joint counter the pull forces on the neck. There's a certain poetry to it. But then again, bolts have the same capacity for tightness of fit and sufficient stability. Numbers vs. emotion.

I agree that a dovetail is a simple joint to make with a good jig, but I think the point Bruce is trying to make is that the jig doesn't do a good job accounting for the neck angle. That has to be hand adjusted. That should be true for a mortise and tenon as well.

I think another point folks are missing is that a tenon that is "v-shaped" isn't really a dovetail (although Martin is using the term "simple dovetail" as marketing, IMHO). That V shape isn't securing anything in place, which is the purpose of a dovetail.

The real "dovetail" part of the joint is along the tenon, from the face to where it meets the shoulders of the heel. If it's perpendicular to the face of the tenon, it's not a dovetail. If there's an angle, it is. You could cut a joint where the face of the tenon was rectangular instead of a "v", and still have a dovetail.