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#31
09-25-2009, 07:10 AM
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I was wondering if/when someone was going to bring up David Rawlings in this thread. In my opinion his use of that old (and much modified) Epiphone illustrates why a question would come up in this forum about why archtops aren't more popular. Bear with me while I theorize... Consider the sorts of music that are sort of a "social norm" around here and think about the guitar characteristics that are implied by those norms. You have a lot of modern-ish fingerstyle stuff in altered tunings that wants a sweet, sustaining, harmonically rich "lush" guitar sound. You also have the bluegrass-inflected hard flatpicking that wants a round, woody, warm tone ideally with a "scooped" tonal balance in which the midrange is backed off to let the powerful bass lines and "cutting" trebles stand out. Those requirements do not lead you to an acoustic archtop design. Listen to David Rawlings's playing...there is nothing sweet or sustaining or "lush" about what he's trying to do. He is one of my favorite guitar players in all the world and I especially dig his use of close and/or dissonant intervals to get a tart little "bite" on just about any solo or even accompaniment that he plays. This is not George Shuffler crosspicking fills for traditional singers, he doesn't hit bluegrass "G runs" and it's on the other side of the world relative to the kind of sweet angelic harmonic-infused fingerstyle New Age stuff that a lot of us around here dream of playing on our fancy handbuilt guitars. I think David Rawlings is as far from a Larry Pattis or a Howard Emerson as you can get without going electric (not to say that Larry's and Howard's styles are particularly close together, they are also different from each other). I suspect he could play the same music on a L-00 or something but his guitar-voice really comes through with a vengeance on that old archtop.
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Grabbed his jacket Put on his walking shoes Last seen, six feet under Singing the I've Wasted My Whole Life Blues ---Warren Malone "Whole Life Blues" 
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#32
09-25-2009, 07:12 AM
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They are as popular as the music played on them. I haven't read the rest of the thread, BTW.
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"Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest." --Paul Simon
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#33
09-25-2009, 07:16 AM
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It's pretty much all been said by others more qualified than I, regarding the acoustics and uses of the archtop; but....
Is there a more beautiful form of the guitar? They are just stunning from modern designs to art deco, to...... well you name it. There are so many visual elements the designer can use to create some real art.
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Cranky, and living at the bottom of the barrel 
Last edited by pappy27; 09-25-2009 at 07:17 AM. Reason: ,
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#34
09-25-2009, 08:10 AM
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#35
09-25-2009, 08:15 AM
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One often overlooked variant of the archtop is the original form of the instrument, the round soundhole version. Orville Gibson patented the archtop in the 1890s, and until Lloyd Loar introduced the f-hole L-5 in 1922, they all had round or oval soundholes. Loar's invention preceded the big band era by a few years, and the f-hole archtop turned out to be just the thing for percussive playing alongside a big horn section. By the end of the 20s, the Great Depression was coming on, and discretionary income for expensive guitars (archtops have always been expensive: more wood and more labor = more money) just wasn't plentiful. Even Gibson got into the flattop market in the late 20s. Pretty soon only the big band and jazz musicians wanted archtops, and by the late 30s the roundhole versions were nore or less replaced by less expensive flattops. In my opinion, that's a shame, because they have sustain (like a good flattop) and projection (like other archtops). I've had three Gibson round hole archtops, and they've all been great guitars. They don't sound like a an OM or a dreadnaught, but they don't sound like an L-5 either. They have their own voice, and it's a really pleasing one. If you can find one, try it out.
-Arch
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#36
09-25-2009, 08:25 AM
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I'm not familiar with either guitar so my answer is not authoritative but it seems to me that they are not in the same category. The Godin 5th Ave. is an acoustic guitar and the Gretsch 5120 seems to be an electric guitar. That would mean that the 5120 would not be loud enough to be useable without the benefit of amplification while the 5th Ave. could be used with or without a pickup just as a Martin D-28 can be used either way.
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#37
09-25-2009, 08:42 AM
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I played several Godin 5th Avenue guitars and they are lots of fun, especially for $450 or so. However, I won't buy a plywood acoustic instrument. And if we move to the electric version, I really don't want the word "Kingpin" on my pickup -- reminds me of a silly movie...
I learned a few Joe Pass classics and that's what prompted my interest in acoustic archtops. While JP is mostly associated with the ES-175, several cuts on the Virtuoso sessions were recorded with an acoustic. For this type of music, my Martin has way too many overtones and my Ovation sounds dead as always. Archtops have a short decay, less sustain, and that's what makes them appropriate for traditional jazz. Unfortunately, there isn't any American-made acoustic archtops unless you pay a very steep amount...
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#38
09-25-2009, 01:43 PM
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I have to agree with pappy27, they are works of art to my eyes. I've bought, sold or traded lots of guitars to get the three wonderful flat tops I now have. But I stll want a sunburst acoustic archtop, if for nothing else to just set on a nice stand in my family room and look at.
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#39
09-25-2009, 02:58 PM
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You know....I think you have to be a better player to get all the good sounds out of an archtop. I have two, and they are not so forgiving as a flat top. Gotta love that sound though.....If you get tired of ringing overtones and muddy chords, try an archtop
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#40
09-25-2009, 03:05 PM
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It really is a different animal in many ways, and the overtones can be infuriating. I always have green felt under the strings behind the nut on all my guitars, because I can hear them ringing. On my L-5, however, I also have a thick piece of piano hammer felt woven through the strings behind the bridge to damp the sympathetic vibrations. Mr. Klepper: Was that proper use of 'damp'? Regards, Howard Emerson
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#41
09-28-2009, 07:14 PM
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Regards, Frank
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#42
09-30-2009, 12:11 AM
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Archtop Guitars
Where to start...my very first guitar was an acoustic archtop Silvertone. It was pressed plywood;not carved. This was about 1963 or so. Yeah,"old-guy" guitar. It was,arguably worth the $20 I paid.(my Dad paid). Thanks Dad!
For acoustic guitars I played flattops exclusively after that for all the reasons mentioned that most people do not play straight-acoustic archtops. For the last 20 years I've been playing mandolin 95% and some guitar. Then (sun breaks through the clouds/angels sing) couple years ago I got an Eastman AR605;no pu/no cutaway. This is a Fisch-series guitar w/mahogany B&S. I'm back to paying guitar again about 50/50 with mando.;but,this guitar has put me on a new path/showed me what is possible with an acoustic archtop. Don't want to take up too much space trying to say what a revelation the 605 has been for me. I've owned Martins,Collings D3 Braz.,CA guitars,and even made a couple of flattops. I don't play jazz guitar(I'm leaning that way though.) The Eastman was about $1200 when I bought it. I have played many other,much more expensive archtops I didn't like nearly as much. It is truly an incredible-sounding instrument! Plays like buttah;kicks proverbial ***. I would just say that if you play guitar;and have been wondering about archtops,you owe it to yourself to check them out. I've been looking around for an "Eastman Archtop Guitar Forum" so I can woof about the 16",non-cutaway,mahogany. I still geek a little when I play it. My flattops are case-dwellers now;and,my mandolins are pissed. The Eastman AR605 gets better and better the more I play it. I could not be any happier if I were twins! Yep,I'm an old guy.(59).
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#43
09-30-2009, 12:54 AM
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So, the Gretsch Synchromatic G100 is comparable to the Godin 5th Ave as an archtop. Both are nice guitars for the money and they are in a similar price range too. I played both a few times and went with the Gretsch G100CE with a mini humbuker and cutaway. As an acoustic the Gretsch has much more volume than the Godin and IMHO sounds more interesting all around. The Electromatics are birds of a different feather.
I got the Gretsch thinking I would (spastically) explore a bit of jazz guitar, which I do occasionally. But I've ended up playing a lot stuff on it especially African guitar pieces as I work through a book by Banning Eyre. So far it sounds great for Congolese soukous and Malian bluess styles. It also sounds cool for some of my favorite hippie rock music. I play it acoustic 8 out of 10 times. I'm constantly cycling through guitars, but I'm pretty sure the Gretsch G100 is a keeper. Well...at least until I can afford a higher end archtop that I like as well dollar for dollar -- might be another synchromatic. (BTW My other keeper is a Martin DC-16GTE, and though it's obviously very different from the Gretsch, they compare favorably as mid-priced instruments.) That said, I spent just a few minutes playing an Eastman recently. It was nicer than either the Godin or Gretsch, but it was about twice the money. Rob Quote:
Last edited by Fungus Kahn; 09-30-2009 at 01:01 AM.
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#44
09-30-2009, 03:06 AM
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Hmm
Just out of curiosity I'm would gather that archtop players (jazz focused) typically play with very hard picks for their solo runs and loud comping needs. Hypathetically If I wanted to use an acoustic archtop as a strummer and play folk style vocal accompaniment music, (I understand that my tone would likely suffer and the lack of pronounced sustain would be a horrible fit for my style), how would strumming with a medium to soft pick sound. It would seem if archtops are naturally loud that a soft pick would mellow them out some for a more mainstram application. Has anyone who owns a nice carved arch ever agressively strummed their arch with say a medium pick or even a .50 softy. Just curious....
I ask because I beleive any acoustic instruments tonal characteristics are drastically effected by both technique, attack, and the picks we use. We are used to hearing archtops played in jazz, swing, and gypsy style contexts and thus we have trained are ears to judge them in those settings. Can't we infer that making modifications to our playing techniques could meen archtops become options for us strummers?
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"Dying on the Vine EP" available on itunes 2004 Martin D41 2006 Guild D40 "The Future of Whistling"......Daniel Duncan
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#45
09-30-2009, 05:00 AM
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I have wondered about this same question myself. Any one can answer it?
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