Archtops 101

[upsidedown]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

I wouldn't use the word "wrong"; what I will say is that archtops inherently tend to follow your lead as a player, becoming what you want (or don't want) them to be to a far greater extent than flattops -

I had a pretty good idea what you meant. It's just that I'd always thought of the process of breaking in as a matter of age and vibration, over the ENTIRE TOP. It never occurred to me that certain areas could open up first, or that other areas might remain unaffected (comparatively), depending generally on the player. Can I assume that to be your implication?

[RobertForman]

hmmm, interesting. from my experience with any kind of guitar, and I have only ever owned one _new_ archtop (several vintage) but my new one is still very young, but I would say that guitars do play in and possibly how you play a guitar will effect how it gets played in. for example if all you ever play are first position open chords like G, C, D, E, you aren't really activating the high frequencies that may blossom if you use the entire neck. so the more you access the entire frequency and harmonic band across the entire fret-board, over time this accumulates and may, in part, determine the sonic character or timbre of your guitar. hard to prove scientifically, but from experience with a lot of guitars that is my impression. now as to whether this phenomenon is more pronounced on archtops, it could be but I am not saying that today.

it is possible since the overall design and structure of an archtop is much more rigid as compared to a flattop. thus, if we follow this theory to its logical extreme, over time the player is key in determining the overall tone of a guitar. we know that when two players play the same guitar, that guitar can sound different depending on the style and technique and approach of each player. now would one player versus the other player, all hypothetical mind you, given twenty, thirty years, a lifetime of playing on one archtop, two players with different styles and the archtop develops into a different instrument depending on who played that guitar. yes, possibly this is correct, though remember a guitar only makes a sound when someone is playing it.

[RobertForman]

now here's an analogy, a wild one, but I tend to think of guitars or breaking in a guitar as similar to breaking in a pair of blue jeans or breaking in a baseball glove, as you use it it's gets softer and looser and feels more comfortable. now a minute ago I was looking at two pairs of New Balance shoes, same exact model, one brand new, hardly been worn, the other pair over four years old, hiked the Grand Canyon in them. The new pair retains it's perfect new shape. the old pair has the shape of my foot. it doesn't have the shape of my kid's foot or my wife's foot, I stretched those shoes out and they are shaped like my feet. now my wife, her feet are smaller, if she starts wearing those shoes, they aren't going to get smaller or bend to the shape of her foot. now my brother's foot, it's a size larger, maybe two sizes larger, he puts his feet in those shoes and starts walking around and he is going to stretch them even further and those shoes won't perfectly match his foot shape since I already broke them in, but they are going to stretch even more and maybe take on some of the characteristic shape of his foot. if you wrap your mind around this analogy you will understand that guitar tops are like shoes.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by upsidedown

...I'd always thought of the process of breaking in as a matter of age and vibration, over the ENTIRE TOP. It never occurred to me that certain areas could open up first, or that other areas might remain unaffected (comparatively), depending generally on the player...

It is age and vibration over the entire top, no question about it; as with any other guitar it's just a matter of what frequencies, at what intensity, for how long - and for carved archtops we're talking a more extended period of time than with flattops. However, what you suggest about certain areas of the top opening up before others may in fact have some validity - and I suspect that's one of the secrets behind the better instruments. As I'm sure you're aware, a fine carved instrument is graduated and tuned during the construction process, by selectively removing wood from certain areas of the top; needless to say, this will inevitably result in some areas being thicker or thinner than others - and if you ever have the chance to examine an older carved archtop with unbound f-holes the difference can be significant. Lower-end New York Epiphones - the Zenith and Blackstone in particular - are especially good candidates; most show dramatic differences not only between the string and rim sides of the f-holes, but also along the inner rims of the f-holes on the string side - perhaps the key to their renowned cutting power. It would seem logical that the thicker portions of the top would take longer to break in than the thinner ones (requiring stronger vibration to do so), and the ones closest to the bridge sooner than those farthest away, resulting in a longer time necessary for full tonal development; by the same token, although I have a half-century of playing experience I'm not a luthier - and although I understand that some trade secrets are just that, I'd like to see someone with archtop building experience weigh in on this one...

[upsidedown]

Given what you're saying, in the interest of future generations, I should probably put my new archtop on permanent loan to a player whose skills far outpace mine.

[ronbo]

Originally Posted by upsidedown

Given what you're saying, in the interest of future generations, I should probably put my new archtop on permanent loan to a player whose skills far outpace mine.

I think I'd have to agree with this statement...Any of you experienced guys wanna break in my Eastman for me?

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

My thoughts: if you're breaking in a new archtop play as many different styles as you can, in as many different keys as you can, at as many different dynamic levels as you can, for as many weeks/months/years as you can - you'll find it well worth the time and effort invested...

My experience with an archtop is only a couple of weeks, definitely digging the ride, but thankfully I'm an ADD guitar player, can't play anything well, so I try to play everything ! I'm all over the neck, play blues, bluegrass, fingerstyle, not much jazz (yet) but working at it. Hopefully my lack of experience and mixed-up styles will allow my AR610 to open up in a good way!

BTW, thanks to all of you more experienced owners/players for the great information I'm getting on this forum...quite educational and fun and is making me even more excited about owning and learning about these fine guitars...

[Johncross]

What do you think Of the Regal Made .. Fischer B Imperial ?

[FloridaGull]

I own a 2010 Godin 4th Avenue Kingpin II, and I love it. However, I have been considering selling this guitar (with 2 P90's) for this one:
http://www.gbase.com/gear/the-loar-lh300-2013-sunburst
With the K&K Definity pickup, I am hoping this guitar would have a better acoustic-only tone than the Godin, and also sound more acoustic when plugged in. I have finally determined that I am an acoustic player at heart - the Godin's tone plugged in is a bit "electric-y" for me...

[Steve DeRosa]

I've also got a CW Kingpin II and IME the CW never was about pure acoustic tone, any more than the classic hollowbodies (ES-175, Gretsch 6120, Epiphone Zephyr, Guild X-175, etc.) upon which it was modeled: sweet and mellow close up - and I love chilling out on the couch with it after a week's work (as I'll be doing right after I post ) - but I've also got an acoustic 5th Avenue for straight-up unplugged playing; FWIW, although you'll never get a purely "acoustic" tone out of the CW you can come closer than you think, depending on your setup and the amplification/effects you're using - in this case, the simpler the better (as in avoid the dedicated acoustic guitar amps designed for modern transducers and go through something a little more lo-fi). Try a set of PB strings and a polepiece adjustment (drop your unwound strings - especially the B - and raise the lowest four until the tone/volume is balanced); with some midrange EQ notching (a 10-band stompbox should work nicely in conjunction with your amp's EQ) and a bit of chorus to cut the characteristic "in your face" electric punch you should get a nice jazz tone from the neck pickup, with a definite "acoustic" character...

Hope this helps...