What constitutes a professional level archtop?

[rpguitar]

Another way to look at it is that the students you're referring to are not professionals, so don't judge "professional" from what they use. How about a survey of a few actual professionals - folks who earn a living from playing archtop guitars:

Metheny - Signature Ibanez, formerly ES-175
Scofield - Ibanez AS-200
Lage - Manzer laminate, '32 L-5
Monder - Ibanez AS-50
Kreisberg - ES-175
Vignola - Signature Thorell
Bailey - McCurdy
Krasno - Ibanez AS-200, ES-335
Benson - Signature Ibanez
Malone - L-5CES, Sadowsky LS-17

Obviously this could go on and on. There are a few big dollar guitars in there, but do you see what I see? A whole lot of Ibanez. And a lot of laminates. Because they are practical, reliable, suitable for many kinds of gigs, and are not purchased with loans (other than a credit card).

[David C]

When you walk on stage to perform, very few in the audience will recognize your guitar make/model or care. They may notice a gleaming beauty, or a worn Willie Nelson special and wonder 'what?'. But from the time you start to play it is the sound and interpretation that keeps their attention, or drives them away. If you perform with confidence and ability, the instrument becomes only of importance to you.

[Bern]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

Even though in theory this can be answered, in my opinion it is a pointless endeavor to attempt it. There is almost no standard at all. You can find professional players making good jazz music on all kinds of guitars, archtop or not, electric or acoustic, and at nearly all points on the price spectrum other than perhaps the absolute bottom.

This ^ ^ ^

[Athana]

Originally Posted by posternutbag

This is actually sort of a complicated question with a very long answer. I am a college student. Right now, I am an English Literature major; actually, I am taking a semester off, but I am working towards an English lit degree. I would like to work towards a music degree. I play, but my audition for the classical guitar performance track did not go well. I reassessed my musical abilities and my shortcomings with my guitar teacher (unrelated to my college) and we agreed that I would be better fit in the jazz performance and jazz theory wing of the music program. I am taking a semester off to work on my music skills.

I play some jazz now, and I improvise extensively with my band. My teacher and I are working on my rhythm playing and my phrasing. Right now, I play a Martin 000-28VS. I love the guitar, but it isn't quite right for where I want to go.

I am looking for a guitar that I can play in a variety of settings and that will carry me through the next 2-3 years of my education. Like I said, I can play, but I am still very much a student.

Most of the guitar performance majors in the jazz program have $5-$10K guitars. My original question centered around trying to figure out what sort of guitar I should look at so that I can "fit in" when I audition again in Feb. It may not be the most noble of goals, but it is important to me. If I had world class chops, I could show up at my audition with anything and blow like crazy. I am not that good, so I want to try to look the part to put a good image of myself in the minds of the panel. It is the same reason I am going to wear a suit. If I played like Julian Lage, I could wear jeans and a T-shirt. I do not play like Julian Lage.

Thank you for reading; I hope that helps.

You may take the advice of the chap suggesting the $550 Ibanez but I still think its a good bet a nice L5 will have a better tone..(my statement was partly T&C to begin with).
I just bought an acoustic that is so good sounding my wife said to me the other day.. "ANYONE.. would sound good on that guitar" THAT is the kind of guitar you want to try to get your hands on.
For me that guitar is a 57' Les Paul Jr. Its different for everyone though.

[posternutbag]

Over the last several months that I have considered this, I have often wondered how many people who say that you can play jazz on anything would actually have the courage of their convictions and walk into an important, potentially life changing, audition with a $500 guitar. It has occurred to me that doing so would say one of two things. It either says, "I'm so good, I can play anything," or it says, "This is just my hobby; I'm not really taking this audition seriously." I have tried to make it abundantly clear that I do not fall into the first category, and I am desperately trying to avoid the second.

I play a little violin on the side, not enough to be good, but I can play a little, and so I discretely asked a couple of classical violin majors I know pretty well what they played. It is hard for me to tell at a glance whether a violin is a $1500 Chinese factory-made, shop finished instrument or a $7k-$10k instrument (I can spot the VSOs). There are no names on the headstocks of violins. The three answers I got indicated a range of a low of approx. $4k to a high of $12k. It certainly doesn't represent a scientific survey, but it suggests that high-dollar (relatively) instruments are fairly common in college music programs.

Just as a side point, I hold Ibanez hollows and semi-hollows (particularly those from the late 70's to early-mid 80's) in high regard.

We had two pianos and a harpsichord in my house growing up, I should have played keys.

[rpguitar]

Your point about making an impression at an audition, via the instrument you bring and the commitment level it implies, is definitely understood and valid. On the other hand, people are judgmental, and it could be off-putting to arrive at an audition as a student - in front of professors who've paid their own dues - with a $10,000 guitar.

If I were one of those professors watching an 18 or 20 year old saunter in with a pre-factory Benedetto or a Gibson LeGrande, I'd expect to see quite a performance to justify it. And then, as has been said, if the performance smokes, then the instrument ceases to matter. But a high dollar guitar makes you prove something on multiple levels, whereas a cheaper one doesn't get in the way.

I think the $500 Ibanez argument was made simply to illustrate that the guitar itself is not indicative of one's abilities. Nobody is really suggesting that you should play one, unless of course you love it and choose it. If I show up for a jam or gig today it will be with an L-5. But as a student I had no chance of owning one, nor was I even aware they existed. I coveted Pat Metheny's ES-175DN at that time, but didn't buy one until nearly 20 years later when I could afford it with my own money!

[jebsong]

I agree that it is the player not the guitar. If you have a good guitar now electric or flattop, I would just go with these until you have had more experience.

Once you have gained this experience and checked out a wide variety of of guitars, acoustic and electric archtops, solid body's and flattops you will have a better idea of the sound you want.

Then with this knowledge my advice would be to buy the best quality guitar you can find and this does not necessarily mean spending mega bucks! Depending on what you finally decide is the optimal guitar for your playing style and the tone you want you might be looking at maybe as much as $2000 on the low end to as much as $5000 on the high end on a good used guitar.

I'm new to the archtop and jazz but from the advice I've gotten on this forum, if you are looking for a great acoustic archtop with or without a pickup you can get a Trenier arctop used for as little as 5K that will sound as good or better than archtops that would set you back many more thousands.

I have a Colling AT 16 that I just bought that is a great sounding guitar, but it cost 10K. The Trenier IMO would sound just as good and maybe better. I also have a Collings SJ maple flattop that is great for playing jazz and you could get on of these for as little as 3K.

jebsong

[shredmiyagi]

My 2 cents: I've played $8000 archtops that felt and sounded worse to me than $300-600 guitars.. it's a broad statement, but I think there's a distinct difference in price due to collector's and player's looking for different things in their instrument. Don't take it the wrong way though, I've run into a handful of wonderful instruments I wish I could afford.

Ultimately you can get what you pay for... But I really think jazz, more than anything, is a kind of music where you should really focus on the tone and phrasing you get out of your brain and fingers, more than the guitar.

Still, it'd be really nice to be a noteworthy player and have noteworthy, expensive luthiers and builders doing their best to impress you. Then again, it'd be nice to just be as good as a Sylvain Luc or a Russell Malone.

ANyway I'll close by saying, I've seen world-class players play virtuoso music on Epiphones and Ibanezes, very affordable Korean or Chinese instruments. Never underestimate a GREAT setup.

[bohemian]

I'm afraid your post is too factual.. may not fly here.

Three cheers for having the huevos to state what others will not.

[jim777]

This is an older thread at this point, but I honestly don't think the folks on the panel will care terribly what you are playing. The kids you end up in class with very well might, but not the panel judging your ability. If you get yourself a Vestax made D'Angelico NYL-2 you will get a fine instrument with a nice name on it in the 2 grand range. If you get an Eastman 910 you'll have a great instrument as well, and the folks on the panel who know such things will know you invested your money wisely and carefully to boot. The 175/575's are good choices as well and can be played louder (generally speaking) than the archtops without pickup holes cut in them, so there's that. I have brought Ibanez Jems to gigs twice, and they sounded fantastic (Bartolini humbuckers replaced the stockers) but I did get some funny looks LOL

[kayakman]

Very subjective question indeed.

[s2y]

Doesn't matter to musicians and listeners who are content with what they have. One guitar is too cheap. The other too fancy for the guy who owns it. Guy 1 is a better player. Guy 2 makes more money. The urination competition begins.....