The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Other Musical Instruments

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-29-2005, 10:21 AM
JackLeggedDawg JackLeggedDawg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 166
Default banjo questions

Okay, I know this is not the ideal forum, but it seems we have several banjo players. Always thought I would get one to play around with, but I would want to go cheap--at least for starters. I have two categories of questions:

1. What is the tonal difference between an open-back and a resonator banjo? Are all resonators necessarily louder? Would the volume of the open-back be a big problem? In other words, would it be much quieter than an acoustic guitar?

2. What about six-string banjos? On the one hand, it would be easier for me to adjust to. But it seems kinda like cheating; if you're going to play banjo, play it pure. I also assume it would be harder to find instructional DVD's/books for 6-string banjo.
__________________
-Mike
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-29-2005, 10:28 AM
dthumb dthumb is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,591
Talking One thing at a time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLeggedDawg
Okay, I know this is not the ideal forum, but it seems we have several banjo players. Always thought I would get one to play around with, but I would want to go cheap--at least for starters. I have two categories of questions:

1. What is the tonal difference between an open-back and a resonator banjo? Are all resonators necessarily louder? Would the volume of the open-back be a big problem? In other words, would it be much quieter than an acoustic guitar?

2. What about six-string banjos? On the one hand, it would be easier for me to adjust to. But it seems kinda like cheating; if you're going to play banjo, play it pure. I also assume it would be harder to find instructional DVD's/books for 6-string banjo.
First...I have NEVER seem or played ANY banjo that was not considerably loudr than ANY guitar...just the nature of the beast. Resonators are a bit more "refined" but open backs have great tonal qualities...apples and oranges.
Next, string thing...I've never played a 6 string banjo but, I learned to finger pick on a 5 string. The drone string is alot like a dropped D tuning in the way it gets used.
Banjos are a ball!!! Open tuning city!! Now I want one again!!!!
__________________
Barrett
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-29-2005, 11:01 AM
Folkstrum's Avatar
Folkstrum Folkstrum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLeggedDawg
Okay, I know this is not the ideal forum, but it seems we have several banjo players. Always thought I would get one to play around with, but I would want to go cheap--at least for starters. I have two categories of questions:
1. What is the tonal difference between an open-back and a resonator banjo? Are all resonators necessarily louder? Would the volume of the open-back be a big problem? In other words, would it be much quieter than an acoustic guitar?
2. What about six-string banjos? On the one hand, it would be easier for me to adjust to. But it seems kinda like cheating; if you're going to play banjo, play it pure. I also assume it would be harder to find instructional DVD's/books for 6-string banjo.
Yep--and I'm one (banjo player-and not a virtuoso by any means). I own a Deering "Sierra", which is IMHO a really nice resonator banjo-very high quality, but not a "grail". The good thing about Deerings is that the pots and tone rings are all high quality-even at their least expensive models with a tone ring; the cosmetics, inlay, and woods change with more expensive ones. Woods don't make as big a sonic difference with banjos as they do with acoustic guitars.

An open back will have less volume than a resonator; you can do bluegrass (Scruggs picking) on them, but open backs are more for what's described as that "old timey" sound. Frailing is the most common usage for open-backs, and they tend not to have as bright/loud a sound as a resonator banjo. Bluegrassers most always choose the resonator banjos. Often, the banjo head will be a "fibreskyn" on newer open backs, which emulate the sound of calf-skin head banjos from the days of yore--sorta "plunky". I owned open backs for years, and ususally had a plastic head-more "bite." Most builders offer both styles in 5-strings (and 4 strings, which can either be "tenor banjos" or "plectrum" banjos. An open back can still cut through guitar accompaniament (like the old Vega Pete Seeger long-necks, prized by the old folk groups like The Kingston Trio, Limeliters, etc.) The Vega name (once of Boston) was acquired by Martin for a short time in the 70's, and now is owned exclusively by Deering.

A resonator banjo is considerably heavier than an open back, due to the flange assembly, and usually beefier tone-ring and resonator back. I would avoid ANY banjo (open-back, or resonator) WITHOUT a tone ring sitting between the "pot" and the "head." The Deering website has a nice, downloadable banjo maintenance and adjustment PDF I believe, that could be useful for ANY banjo-not just Deerings.

With banjos, Gibson tends to be the "standard" against which all resonator banjos are measured--and like guitars, the older ones in pristine shape are prized. You'll pay as much for a decent banjo as you will a decent guitar. And there are bargain imports out there, too: Saga, Goldtone, Johnson, etc. Huss and Dalton recently got into making their own banjos, as did the Sullivans at FQMS. Some really GOOD banjos are made by: Gibson, Deering, Stelling, Wildwood to name just a few larger makers; on a smaller scale, Mike Ramsey, Wyatt Fawley, etc. make some wonderful instruments. Fender also imports banjos.

As to six-string-yeah-you won't get that "bluegrass" sound from them. There is no drone 5th string; generally, you don't finger-pick them (but you could) but it won't be a true Scruggs picking style like on a 5 string. 6 strings are tuned like a guitar-they will give you a banjo "sound" without having to re-learn chord structures. Most 5-strings are in "G" tuning, and chord positions are similar to a 4-string guitar (or Tenor guitar--if tuned to the E-B-G-D of a 6 string).

There are plenty of banjo websites out there--just Google away. If you really want to hear how versatile banjo playing can be, give a listen to Bela Fleck--he does it ALL, and has pushed the envelope to classical, jazz--and of course bluegrass on 5-string banjo. Many (including myself) consider him to be one, if not THE best all-around banjo player out there.

While subject to humidity, temp changes, etc. they are not nearly as "hinky" as a guitar in that regard. I don't keep a humidifier in my banjo case. There are cheap, crappo banjos--and really good ones. More sparkle doesn't make for a great banjo any more than it makes for a great guitar. Also, Homespun videos/DVD's offer some nice instructional materials. The quintessential book on 5-strings was written years ago by Pete Seeger: "How to Play the 5-string Banjo".

Too much information?

(feel free to PM me if you have a specific model, or line in mind-or if you'd like some recommendations on banjos. I recommend looking at "folkofthewood.com" for a reasonable selection of banjos in a wide-price range)

Last edited by Folkstrum; 05-29-2005 at 11:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-29-2005, 11:08 AM
dthumb dthumb is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,591
Default

Thanks Folkstrum! Great info. I know I was a little vague but I figured one of yo guys would take up my slack. Now my thirst is even greater! May not be a good thing...hehe. BELA FLECK rules the banjo!!
__________________
Barrett
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-29-2005, 07:17 PM
nhsmitty nhsmitty is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,291
Default

Check out this place for lotsa info.. The forum is really helpful. http://www.banjohangout.org/

I love my banjo, a Derring Goodtime openback. It's not high end but it suits my needs at the moment. I've played more expensive banjers in an effort to maybe move up, but to my ear for now the Goodtime suits my needs. Yet, eye candywise I really want to move up.. Goodtime banjos aren't exactly pretty.

The Goodtime openback can give you both worlds with good tone. There is no reason why you cannot play three fingerstyle on it. If you decide you want to persue three fingerstyle, then get a resonator banjo.. For the price, I think it's a good deal for a beginner. Opinions do vary on that.

Myself, I chose to go with the clawhammer/frailing style of playing. Go here and choose Sound File Index to hear some clawhammer playing. http://zeppcountrymusic.com/frameset.htm Also, give Zepp a call and he can help answer any questions..

Also... Be aware the desire to tinker on a banjo is greater than guitar. The fact that you can completely take the dang thing about and put it back together to see how it works is too inviting..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-29-2005, 09:44 PM
Allen Shadd Allen Shadd is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lake Wylie SC
Posts: 1,586
Default

Which style banjo would be suited to your needs best would depend entirely on what style you intend to learn. As stated before, the open back is primarily for the old-time style, known as clawhammer and frailing. The resonator style is designed for the 3 finger style, including bluegrass as well as alot of the more modern styles like Bela Fleck plays, as an example. As for the 6 string 'banjo', I don't consider it a banjo and neither do other banjo players that I know. I think of it more as a variation of the guitar (like acoustic, electric, 12 string, high strung, etc). It tunes and plays like a guitar but has more of a 'plunky' sound.
Folkstrum gave you alot of good info and I would agree with nearly everything he stated (except I would consider the book 'Earl Scruggs and the 5 String Banjo' the quintessential book before I would Pete Seeger's ) Deering does make a great instrument and the Good Time model may be ideal for a beginner. A few other good manufacturers, but not necessarily for beginning players, would be Ome, Nechville, and of course the Gibson as mentioned. But Janet and Greg Deering are good folks that stand behind their products and also do alot of promotion in the industry. I played and recorded with one of their endorsees, Mark Johnson, who many consider the modern day master of the clawhammer style. He actually plays a more modernized version that he calls 'Clawgrass'. Guitar content- as well as myself recording on his 'Bridging the Gap' cd, Tony Rice also was a guest. I know there are some soundbytes at Mark Johnson if you want to check him out.
________
KID PRILOSEC

Last edited by Allen Shadd; 05-03-2011 at 08:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-29-2005, 10:29 PM
Folkstrum's Avatar
Folkstrum Folkstrum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,079
Default

Pistolero added some great information. Like him, I don't consider a 6-string banjo a "real" banjo-but then some people really like them because they do give you a banjo sound with guitar chords (sorta).

You can three-finger pick on ANY 5-string, whether it be open back, or resonator. Deering makes a banjo (as does Goldtone) with a pop-off resonator, that can do double duty.

I know I'm dating myself, but if you want to hear some really fine 5-string work from the folk-era on a Vega Pete Seeger longneck open-back, pick up a couple of Kingston Trio CD's--or find some old folkie like me who has them ALL. Dave Guard did some phenomenal picking on a bluegrass tune called "Blue Eyed Gal" on an album called "Make Way." He uses an early version of Keith tuners on a killer cut from an album called "Goin' Places" called "Razors Flyin' In The Air." Also three other killer banjo cuts from that album were: "You're Gonna Miss Me," "Coast of California" where he mixes frailing/clawhammer WITH Scruggs picking, and "Run Molly Run" (a re-do of a classic Bill Monroe bluegrass tune originally titled "Molly and Tenbrooks"). This is all open-back banjo work.

Along with Bela Fleck, give a listen to any older Dillards albums (they used to appear on the old Andy Griffith show as "the Darling family"), or Eric Weissburg, who did "Dueling Banjos" from the movie "Deliverance." Tony Trishka is another fabulous banjo picker-there are tons of them out there in any Bluegrass section in your local music store (Bela Fleck, was for awhile, in an ace group called "The Newgrass Revival."). Emily, from the Dixie Chicks, is great, and Nickel Creek does some good stuff too.

While I like the Deering Goodtime, some feel it's a bit overpriced. Saga used to make a more reasonable 5-string (yeah-the Blueridge people), and Goldtone may make some of the best bargains in banjos going: Goldtones are assembled and set up in the U.S. (Florida) but import their parts.

You can frail/clawhammer on a resonator banjo; you can 3-finger pick on an open back. Banjos are amazingly versatile instruments, and the butt of many jokes (like--the "definition of perfect pitch: when you can drop a banjo down a well and not hit any of the accordians on the way down.") Good luck in your quest--you may become a social outcast, but as Steve Martin (the commedian, who is a very serious and accomplished picker himself) says: you just can't play a banjo and be angry at the same time!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-30-2005, 06:56 AM
Fredmando Fredmando is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 690
Default

Ok, now my Banjo Cravings are coming back too!
I rented a banjo from a local shop about two years ago and had a blast. It was a Washburn B-16 and it was awesome once it was set up correctly. I think I will buy a banjo someday and have looked at the Goldtones. They are nice for the money. Has anyone tried the Boston model of the Deering line?
I think I have that right.
Interesting stuff,
Fred
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-30-2005, 07:01 AM
JackLeggedDawg JackLeggedDawg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 166
Default

Thanks for the great info, guys. I think I may be looking at a Blueridge or Goodtime on the low end and maybe up to a Deering Boston on the high side.
__________________
-Mike
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-30-2005, 12:00 PM
Fngrstyl Fngrstyl is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Abingdon, Illinois
Posts: 6,201
Default

Im a big banjo fan. I actually started on banjo, then went into Fingerstyle.
I dont play as much as I should, but I get it out once in a while. Heres a few tunes, if you want to listen. Home Sweet Home I use the Scruggs Tuners. I love that effect. IMO, and resonater banjo is the only way to go. The samples are on a 30yrs old Gibson RB-250 that my dad bought new. I have since changed the rim, tail piece, bridge, tone ring, and just about everything else that affects the sound.

Deputy Dalton

Home Sweet Home
__________________
Chad Fengel
itunes

My YouTube

Facebook


"Only by becoming acquainted with your own self,
can you gain the composure to write original music"


Michael Hedges ♫
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-30-2005, 12:35 PM
Folkstrum's Avatar
Folkstrum Folkstrum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fngrstyl
Im a big banjo fan. I actually started on banjo, then went into Fingerstyle. I dont play as much as I should, but I get it out once in a while. Heres a few tunes, if you want to listen. Home Sweet Home I use the Scruggs Tuners. I love that effect. IMO, and resonater banjo is the only way to go. The samples are on a 30yrs old Gibson RB-250 that my dad bought new. I have since changed the rim, tail piece, bridge, tone ring, and just about everything else that affects the sound.
Lotsa changes, there, Fingerstyle! Hope it retained its "vintage value"
Have you ever considered getting rid of the "Scruggs tuners" for the Keith tuners? Rumor has it they're MUCH smoother, and far-less instrusive.

Maybe this thread needs to invent a new acronym: "B.A.S"
{will the "mods" want to start a "Banjo forum"? Seems like there are more than a few lurking in the bushes around here! Actually-I like the diversion, and think it's fine right where it is--my 2 cents}
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-30-2005, 12:41 PM
Fngrstyl Fngrstyl is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Abingdon, Illinois
Posts: 6,201
Default

Thats what I meant.. Scruggs-Keith Tuners. I didnt mean I had the tuners that Earl use to use with the extra holes, and extra tuners added. I have all the original parts, so any time I wanted to change back I could. I dont think I would, because it sounds a heck of a lot better now..
__________________
Chad Fengel
itunes

My YouTube

Facebook


"Only by becoming acquainted with your own self,
can you gain the composure to write original music"


Michael Hedges ♫
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-30-2005, 01:50 PM
Folkstrum's Avatar
Folkstrum Folkstrum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,079
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fngrstyl
Thats what I meant.. Scruggs-Keith Tuners. I didnt mean I had the tuners that Earl use to use with the extra holes, and extra tuners added. I have all the original parts, so any time I wanted to change back I could. I dont think I would, because it sounds a heck of a lot better now..
Cool. Sounds like a good plan; Dave Guard (and others) did use those early Scruggs tuners on their banjos-great effects, but like you said, extra holes and the sliding levers. I guess Keith came along and really streamlined them (I don't use them BTW).

Well, this has been (to me at least) an interesting diversion of a discussion. But back to guitars for a sec. Anyone play any "Liberty Tree" guitars from either Kevin G. or Taylor? There's a really interesting history of the tree(s) that were cut down to get the back/side woods from--wish I still had the link. Maybe I'll do a search.


Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-30-2005, 02:17 PM
Fngrstyl Fngrstyl is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Abingdon, Illinois
Posts: 6,201
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkstrum
I guess Keith came along and really streamlined them (I don't use them BTW).
He sure did. You loosen the set screws, and tune the banjo to pitch. Then set the black set screw. Tune down to D tuning, then set the other set screw. Then when you turn the tuning key it stops between the set screws.



Home Sweet Home
__________________
Chad Fengel
itunes

My YouTube

Facebook


"Only by becoming acquainted with your own self,
can you gain the composure to write original music"


Michael Hedges ♫

Last edited by Fngrstyl; 05-30-2005 at 02:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-30-2005, 02:41 PM
815C 815C is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Hills Of Tennessee
Posts: 4,096
Default

I happened to play banjo today on a session. I haven't had a banjo in 20 years, but thankfully I remembered the neck pretty good and all the fingerstyle guitar I play helped out as well. The bridge had some wild chords (for banjo) such as EbM7, Ebm9, etc., but it came out sounding pretty cool. I borrowed a buddies MaestroTone which is a knock off of a MasterTone. Used a thumb pick, but no finger picks as the tune was kind of an alternative type thing that didn't call for a bluegrass sound. It made me want to get a banjo and learn a few tunes.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Other Musical Instruments

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=