Will Major Wooden Guitar Makers Embrace Carbon As A Construction Alternative?

[Martinesque]

Originally Posted by 1cubilindo

Carbon Fiber prices have fluctuated over time based on the old supply and demmand trick. Shortly after 9/11, cf prices dropped to around $5 a pound. Around 2004 the aerospace/aviation industry revived production and cf prices increased to $20-25 per pound. Production has ramped up to meet demand and prices have stabalized, although low 2002 numbers will not be seen again IMO. Hope that helps.

Rather fascinating the carbon fibre material is sold by the pound. Even at $25 per pound the raw material expense is quite low. Brilliant!

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by Martinesque

Rather fascinating the carbon fibre material is sold by the pound. Even at $25 per pound the raw material expense is quite low. Brilliant!

It can also be purchased pre-woven, which I believe is what the guitar makers purchase. Rainsong buys prepreg (with epoxy already applied), and CA adds epoxy to theirs.

Even at the retail price, it seemed relatively cheap to me. Maybe $20-30 for a square yard.

Most of the guitar cost is in the labor, which is why it seems like the ideal guitar to be produced off-shore.

[SpruceTop]

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[tkuane]

Originally Posted by vicov

Whilst it is not a true parallel, in the world of cycling, CFC bikes have become common because of availability/relative low cost/value for money. Just 5 years ago CFC bike frames were really expensive +£2.5K for Colnago C50 for example. Todays frames are the same price. This is for material scourced in Italy. Material sourced in the far east is however considerably less expensive & manufactures are able to offer bike frames at around the £1K mark now. Traditional steel tig welded bike frames have however increased in price and their desirability factor has risen subsequently. There is a message in there somewhere.
Also, just as an aside, check out this link for CF price history...http://www.netcomposites.com/education.asp?sequence=35

Vic

Hi Vicov,

I don't want to sound mean at all, but the price drop mentioned in that article happened more than ten years ago. Lots has happened since then.

1. There is a worldwide shortage of carbon fiber due to greatly increased demand, especially from the car industry. There's no way guitar companies can compete with these huge companies for limited carbon fiber, unless customers are willing to pay many times more for a carbon fiber guitar compared to wood. Sheets of good quality carbon fiber today costs more than top grade tonewoods.
2. Carbon fiber manufacture is closely related to the price of energy, due to the huge amount of energy and time (and cost) required for its manufacture, so its price will not drop from here on forth, especially since huge efforts have been made in mass production and the price drop due to that has already happened 10 years ago.
3. An alternative would be to use low grade carbon fiber, but that would mean compromising on the stiffness to weight ratio of the material, which means compromising on its best attribute for use in building guitars.

The wood shortage mentality on this forum is really overblown. Wood use can be sustainable, especially for guitar building, since a guitar uses relatively so little of it.
Carbon fiber creates of lot carbon emission in its manufacture. It is not recyclable and not biodegradable.
Guess which material is cheaper, better for the environment and has more fans in terms of tone?

[tkuane]

If you're not convinced, try googling the price of a carbon fiber weave sheet large enough to build the soundboard of a guitar. Multiply that by how many layers you want to build with. The hard carbon fiber composite me and you are used to are made of multiple layers of carbon fiber weave.

Not cheap, is it?

[vicov]

Originally Posted by tkuane

If you're not convinced, try googling the price of a carbon fiber weave sheet large enough to build the soundboard of a guitar. Multiply that by how many layers you want to build with. The hard carbon fiber composite me and you are used to are made of multiple layers of carbon fiber weave.

Not cheap, is it?

I really don't care & this post exhausts my contribution to this thread - have a look at this, you will probably find it an interesting read.....http://www.netcomposites.com/netcomm...tures.asp?1678

Vic

[drbluegrass]

I think any company (including CA) that manufactures only carbon fiber guitars is doomed to fail. They will either need to add traditional wooden instruments to their line or be acquired by an established company (like Fender) to survive long term. The main problem I see with CA is the cost. IMHO, they're almost $1000 beyond what the "average guitar player" will spend on a carbon fiber guitar/non-traditional guitar.
For me, a carbon fiber guitar is a guitar I'd like to have when playing outdoors and conditions may be hard on a fine traditional wooden guitar. Before I make the following statement let me qualify it by stating I've never played or heard a carbon fiber guitar live, except for an occasional Ovation years ago. But in a comparison of sound clips the CA guitars sound "OK", not bad, but nowhere close to the top notch traditional wooden acoustic dreads such as Collings, Bourgeois, Huss & Dalton, or Martin. I mean no offense to anyone by that statement. It's simply my opinion. Would I like to own a CA guitar? You bet...for the reason I stated above. But the current asking price is way beyond what I'd pay for one. Maybe I'll change my mind after playing a carbon fiber guitar live...but I really doubt it. JMHO, YMMV.


Tom

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by drbluegrass

The main problem I see with CA is the cost. IMHO, they're almost $1000 beyond what the "average guitar player" will spend on a carbon fiber guitar/non-traditional guitar.

You may want to revise that number. The CA OX Raw is available for pretty much exactly the amount you state, and the Cargo is typically about 20% less.

[drbluegrass]

Originally Posted by eatswodo

You may want to revise that number. The CA OX Raw is available for pretty much exactly the amount you state, and the Cargo is typically about 20% less.

That's very good to know. Last time I looked at the CA website the prices of their top guitars were in the $3000+ range.
The first question I would have is: Do the CA guitars available at the price range you mention rival the best sounding traditional wooden guitars? Because that's what I'm going to be wanting in an "outdoor guitar". If I have to compromise my tone I want the compromise to be as little as possible...preferably no compromise at all. And you can purchase a great sounding, new, wooden guitar in the low $3000 range. I personally will not pay $3000 for the CA guitars I've heard clips of especially when those clips were compared to other clips, on the same website, of quality wooden guitars of the same general price range. I know all about the limitations of sound clips. But the clips were recorded using the same equipment, levels, etc. And I still think you can get a "reasonable facsimile" of the tone of the guitars, especially when they're compared to other clips made using the same equipment and techniques.
Don't get me wrong here...I think the CA guitars sound very good. Absolutely. Just not good enough for me to pay the price you have to pay to get their best sounding guitar, one that will rival or come close to a high quality traditional wooden guitar.
However, the fact still remains, I've never actually played or heard one live. And perhaps, if they do indeed rival the sound of high quality traditional wooden guitars that makes this entire discussion moot. I do know that no less a guitarist than Tim Stafford endorses them. And I have immense respect for Tim's considerable abilities on guitar. But I would still have to swallow pretty hard to pay the prices I've seen for an "outdoor"/"throw around guitar". But this may come as a tremendous shock to everyone here...I've been wrong before.


Tom

[drbluegrass]

Just to clarify a bit, I went to the McNichol Music website and the top Legacy model is listed at $2700+ and the Legacy Tim Stafford model was $2900+. And the Legacy Performer on The Podium's site is $2699. Not sure what the "street prices" of those models would be? Maybe those are the street prices, I don't honestly know.


Tom

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by tkuane

Hi Vicov,

I don't want to sound mean at all, but the price drop mentioned in that article happened more than ten years ago. Lots has happened since then.

1. There is a worldwide shortage of carbon fiber due to greatly increased demand, especially from the car industry. There's no way guitar companies can compete with these huge companies for limited carbon fiber, unless customers are willing to pay many times more for a carbon fiber guitar compared to wood. Sheets of good quality carbon fiber today costs more than top grade tonewoods.
2. Carbon fiber manufacture is closely related to the price of energy, due to the huge amount of energy and time (and cost) required for its manufacture, so its price will not drop from here on forth, especially since huge efforts have been made in mass production and the price drop due to that has already happened 10 years ago.
3. An alternative would be to use low grade carbon fiber, but that would mean compromising on the stiffness to weight ratio of the material, which means compromising on its best attribute for use in building guitars.

The wood shortage mentality on this forum is really overblown. Wood use can be sustainable, especially for guitar building, since a guitar uses relatively so little of it.
Carbon fiber creates of lot carbon emission in its manufacture. It is not recyclable and not biodegradable.
Guess which material is cheaper, better for the environment and has more fans in terms of tone?

You obviously know your stuff, but I'd like to point out that regardless of expense, carbon composites are a nearly limitless resource. And as manufacturers grow scale to meet the increasing demand from aerospace and automotive, and the market sees more competitive alternatives, prices are bound to decline regardless of fixed costs such as energy. And lastly, there are many versions of carbon composites; alternatives abound. Given that the average hardwood take over 100 years to grow large enough for harvesting, I think we are not going to see in-demand woods become any less scarce in the near future.

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by drbluegrass

Just to clarify a bit, I went to the McNichol Music website and the top Legacy model is listed at $2700+ and the Legacy Tim Stafford model was $2900+. And the Legacy Performer on The Podium's site is $2699. Not sure what the "street prices" of those models would be? Maybe those are the street prices, I don't honestly know.


Tom

And I'd like to point out that pricing is almost always reflective of what the market will bear- not what the manufacturing cost is. It is possible that the composite manufacturers have higher profit margins than the others, although I couldn't say for sure.

[drbluegrass]

Bottom line for me is I would very much like to have a composite guitar that sounds and plays almost as good as my Collings D-1A, that I can toss in the trunk of my car, not have to worry about moisture, humidity, and dings, and that costs maybe $1500, certainly not more than $2000 (new). But I'm just not sure how realistic that is? Does CA really make something that meets that criteria (all, not just part of it)?


Tom

[drbluegrass]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

And I'd like to point out that pricing is almost always reflective of what the market will bear- not what the manufacturing cost is. It is possible that the composite manufacturers have higher profit margins than the others, although I couldn't say for sure.

Yep, you're absolutely correct. I pretty much stated that in my post,"...street prices..." etc.


Tom

[David Eastwood]

Originally Posted by drbluegrass

Bottom line for me is I would very much like to have a composite guitar that sounds and plays almost as good as my Collings D-1A, that I can toss in the trunk of my car, not have to worry about moisture, humidity, and dings, and that costs maybe $1500, certainly not more than $2000 (new). But I'm just not sure how realistic that is? Does CA really make something that meets that criteria (all, not just part of it)?


Tom

I really think that you are the only one who can determine that. Forgive me for saying so, but you do seem somewhat predisposed to the notion that your requirements can't be satisfied - you really need to find, and play, some CA and/or Rainsong guitars and make your own mind up.

They do have a different voice, and I find it appealing enough that a CA OX is on my savings list for 2010 - but I'm going to buy it because it's a fine instrument in its own right, and I love the way it sounds and plays. It actually never occurred to me for a moment to compare it with a wooden guitar - it stands on its own merits for me. I also very much liked the Cargo I played, but I don't need both of them. I have not played any of the higher end models.