Foreign (Asian) vs American made guitars

[DanPanther]

Originally Posted by Bearclaw Spruce

Well since you're comparing cheaper guitars to more expensive ones, why don't you try a Michihiro Matsuda next to your Martin and Taylor and get back to us about tone and playability.

Wait a minute Bearclaw, Michihiro Matsuda's website says made in Oakland, Ca, and He mentored in Arizona.......LoL

Dan

[rosborn]

Originally Posted by DanPanther

I'm really interested in expanding your view. If you take two guitars, both made of the same materials. One made in Japan, and the other made in the United States, you feel there is a tonal difference ?
Not being sarcastic at all, I'm just curious if that is your opinion, and if you might have a reason.

Dan

That's pretty much what it came down to for me. My Alvarez MD70 has a sitka spruce top with rosewood sides/back, a mahogany neck, rosewood bridge and fret board, bone nut and saddle and has forward shifted and scalloped x-bracing. For me, the guitar is made of similar or better materials than the Martin D-16RGT and the Martin D-18. My "concern", if I had any, vanished when both my manager, a Martin guy, and my guitar teacher, a professional musician who plays a Martin D-28, told me they were very impressed with my guitar. Neither one of these people would have said such a thing if they didn't believe it.

[Tone.woods]

USA all the way. I've owned both, and in fact my Alvarez wasn't a bad starter guitar...that thing made some good noise. But there's just a quality difference that is very real. Some has to do with the woods, but I think a lot has to do with the process and conditions in the workshops over there.

In the end, the topic of a Martin knockoff is an even bigger discussion than could be accommodated here...but it's fair to say that even Martin is trying to copy themselves at this point. The emulative search for the Pre-War Brazilian RW Martin sound is something where I think we'll have to wait another century to find out who reproduced it best. The cycle continues, just with a different selection of tone woods.

But I digress, buy a Martin.

[Phelonious Ponk]

Originally Posted by Fatstrat

I disagree. As the poster just previous to you said, the vast majority of all guitars made today are variations of pre-existing designs. And to not have a preference in tone is inhuman. As a beginner guitarist I was a Neil Young fan and wanted a guitar that sounded like Neil Young's guitar. And even as a guitar newbie I was keenly aware of the difference between the tone of the cheap guitars I owned vs. what I heard from Neil's. Although at the time I had no knowledge of guitars being made of laminate wood vs. solid wood, or of the various different tone woods etc. I still knew that no matter how well I learned to play Neil's songs, something was missing. It didn't sound the same. And the desire to find out why is the beginning of an understanding of tone. Which is not to say that one can't appreciate more than one tone. But to truly appreciate tone, you have to be able to hear it and be able ID it enough to hear and develop a preference. The quest for tone is instinctive in any serious guitarist.

You can, of course, disagree, but with what? That there is no such thing as preference? That preference cannot disagree with your personal conclusions? That because you sought the sound of Neil Young's guitar, a Martin, that makes it objectively superior to the sound of a Taylor, Gibson, Eastman, etc. and not a preference? Trust me. I'm a serious guitarist. And I have different preferences from yours. What was it you disagreed with again?

P

[rogthefrog]

"Asian guitars" doesn't mean much. Japan may never have the cachet of US manufacturing, but not for lack of quality. MIJ guitars today are all high end instruments. By contrast, most guitars made in Indonesia for the western markets are built as cheaply and quickly as possible to meet a price point. Chinese-made guitars can be trash and they can be very good. There's undoubtedly luthiers in China that are as good as the people here. But they don't produce or export large volumes so the US doesn't know about them.

Korea is rising in prestige the way Japan did. China is catching up to Korea. Most of the low quality these countries have been associated with isn't because they can't produce guitars every bit as good as we can--that's absurd. They have just been a source of cheap labor for western consumers who either wanted cheap guitars or wanted decent guitars but didn't want to pay western labor costs.

Of course there's a long tradition of guitar building in the west, and there's definitely something to be said about that. But Ervin Somogyi wasn't born knowing how to voice a top any more than Ervin Lee or Ervin Park. Anyone can learn anything. PAC rim countries have been catering to our price points and requirements so you can't fault them for their lower quality. And if they produce pricier stuff, nobody is willing to buy it--just look at Baden guitars.

So yeah, most crappy guitars in the US come from SE Asia. But that's because they're what we're buying. My Yamamoto is an Asian-made guitar and it's exquisite.

[rogthefrog]

Originally Posted by Fatstrat

Well that's interesting. But the general fact is that all Asian guitars are copies of American made guitars

Sorry but that's not a fact at all. Ibanez stopped copying US guitars slavishly about 30 years ago. ESP makes world-class guitars and many are not copies of anything. Small brands like Agile and Xaviere are building very original models. Etc.

[JohnW63]

As someone previously said or just implied, there are only so many guitar shapes and sizes that will do the job. No matter who you are, your guitar, if designed to be a tool used in the same way as all OTHER guitars will look a whole lot like another guitar, already built. Of course, if you really TRY to be different, all the same people who cry Asian guitars are just copies of.... will call your guitar weird and not buy it in any numbers. Let's call them... Ovation for instance. So there is no way for other guitar builders to win with the " They're all copies...!!! " crowd. So, why bother ?

I think if you buy a QUALITY level of guitar, it will be a very nice guitar, no matter where it is made. The problem is that many people compare a high end USA or North American guitar with a lower end Asian guitar. It's not a fair comparison. My Walden G2070 gives me the tones I wanted more than any of the Martin's I tried. The lower end Walden 500 series didn't do much for me. If I had only played the low end sub 500 dollar Walden, and the Martin D-28s I tried, I would have an unfair impression of Waldens.

I think the days of Asian guitars being just a copy of something else with no voicing of their own are LONG gone.

[rosborn]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

As someone previously said or just implied, there are only so many guitar shapes and sizes that will do the job. No matter who you are, your guitar, if designed to be a tool used in the same way as all OTHER guitars will look a whole lot like another guitar, already built. Of course, if you really TRY to be different, all the same people who cry Asian guitars are just copies of.... will call your guitar weird and not buy it in any numbers. Let's call them... Ovation for instance. So there is no way for other guitar builders to win with the " They're all copies...!!! " crowd. So, why bother ?

I think if you buy a QUALITY level of guitar, it will be a very nice guitar, no matter where it is made. The problem is that many people compare a high end USA or North American guitar with a lower end Asian guitar. It's not a fair comparison. My Walden G2070 gives me the tones I wanted more than any of the Martin's I tried. The lower end Walden 500 series didn't do much for me. If I had only played the low end sub 500 dollar Walden, and the Martin D-28s I tried, I would have an unfair impression of Waldens.

I think the days of Asian guitars being just a copy of something else with no voicing of their own are LONG gone.

To be fair, I wasn't necessarily interested in comparing a high end USA/North American guitar with a low end Asian guitar. Rather, I was/am interested in the higher mid-level Asian guitar (build quality) with the higher mid-level USA/North American guitar (build quality). This was prompted primarily by the number of rave reviews on this forum for Asian made guitars, even by people who own Martins and Taylors, etc., on the build and tonal quality of the Asian made guitars and my own experience owning an Alvarez. For me, price isn't that much of an issue because if a person were to purchased a used guitar the price of the USA/North American made guitar (even one just a couple of years old) frequently aligns rather nicely with a brand new higher mid-level Asian made guitar.

For me, even one day ago I was solidly in the "I want to own a Martin one day" camp. However, reading through some of the responses in the thread I started, and the rather condescending tone of those responses, I'm kind of leaning towards the "Why would I ever want to be associated with those kind of people" camp. In the end, I have come to the conclusion that I don't care where my guitar is made as long as it is built well, looks great and sounds fantastic.

[JohnW63]

I know what you mean by the "Why would I ever want to be associated with those kind of people" reaction. At some point, you start to associate a brand with the rabid fan of the brand and it's hard to separate the two.

As to your first paragraph. I haven't personally played mid to higher end Asian guitars, so I have little first hand experience to impart. You are correct about the growing respect that the better Off shore brand lines are getting. I played a Nice Recording King or Eastman at Teds, in Hollywood. ( Sorry, Ted, I can't remember what you handed me. ) but I was on the hunt for something moody in the Cedar or Mahogany sound range, so it didn't click for me. It may have BEEN one of the well regarded models mentioned in this thread and I missed it.

I suspect there are people who's priorities are Brand then Sound and others may be Price then Sound and others still that start with Sound and Playability and THEN some order of Price and Brand. The Asian built guitars are well placed for the folks how have Price higher up the scale than Brand. I don't know how long it will be for THEIR brands to appeal to the Brand conscious.

[chris6409]

If you think about it any dread is a copy of martins d1. which is why im with the if it sound great it doesnt matter if its a copy because originally ever manufacturer would of copied martins d1 and 2 in the early 1900s. The morale of the story is whether its made in asia, america or outer space if it sounds great isnt that what your looking for ???

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by Geof S.

I think confirmation bias plays a huge role in these discussions so it's difficult, even impossible, to be objective.

My own partly objective and partly subjective theory of guitars is this: whenever you buy a guitar because of the label, you are likely to end up paying extra for the label. When you buy a guitar because of where it is made, you will probably end up paying extra for that too. When your decisions are made based on something other than looks, playability, or sound, you will pay extra to confirm your biases. And it will probably make you happy, because that is the way confirmation bias works.

We all do this. Works with cars, furniture, clothes hifi, whatever you buy.

Originally Posted by Fatstrat

Very good point. But I think you also made my point w/o realizing it. People who can afford a Stradivarius buy them for status. People who can't afford a Stradivarius try to buy a cheaper violin that plays & SOUNDS like a Stradivarius.

And people do that on this forum. Everyone can offer whatever reasons they like about the listing of guitars in sigs, but a lot of people do this for forum status.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by GraceGuitars

Go back and look at what Bearclaw was responding to...he's being 100% sarcastic.

Went right over my head. Tiredness.

[AndrewG]

Originally Posted by Bearclaw Spruce

You might want to look at the post I was quoting...

Yes I know; it went right over my head. Tired, not concentrating. Apologies.

[Gasworker]

Originally Posted by Drubbing

We all do this. Works with cars, furniture, clothes hifi, whatever you buy.



And people do that on this forum. Everyone can offer whatever reasons they like about the listing of guitars in sigs, but a lot of people do this for forum status.

It's hard to imagine people on a guitar forum seeking status by listing their gear. I suppose since you brought it up people that don't list theirs may be embarrassed? Hmmmm

Back to the OP's original question

A few thoughts first: 1. should Asian made guitars "only" be considered knock-offs of, say, Martin guitars and 2. aren't all modern guitars basically copies of Martin guitars somewhere along the line? I have no intention of offending anyone, I'm just asking out of curiosity. Okay, here goes - is the real draw of Asian produced guitars the fact that you get a Martin "like" sound and very good build quality for less expense? Or, do players really desire Asian made guitars and would purchase them without regard to price?

I don't think Asian guitars are anymore of a knock off than Toyota is to Ford.

I don't desire Asian made guitars/cars regardless of price but I am convinced by their popularity that millions do.

Good thread Rosborn! Lots of replies and it stayed open

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by Gasworker

It's hard to imagine people on a guitar forum seeking status by listing their gear. I suppose since you brought it up people that don't list theirs may be embarrassed? Hmmmm

Status is but one reason. Never said it was the only one.

Why does a reason one person does something, mean someone who doesn't has the opposite reason? That is hard to imagine