And "they" said it can't be done...

[Steve DeRosa]

The all hand-carved, luthier-built $4000 17" jazzbox:

http://www.archtop.com/ac_15webb_ast.html

- and a mere $500 more gets you the upscale version:

http://www.archtop.com/ac_15webb_ss.html

A few words from the builder:

"I build guitars one at a time by hand (without a carving machine)...I have an aversion to using any prefabricated parts to the degree that I try to buy my wood in billets and resaw it myself. Typically I use Sitka spruce for the top, bracing, and linings, Bigleaf maple for the back and sides. For the neck Eastern rock maple is used. Ebony is used for the fingerboard, bridge, tailpiece, and finger rest."

As the word gets out this guy is going to be a real force to be reckoned with - and why anyone would even consider a factory axe at two or three times the price is beyond me...

[Jabberwocky]

It can't be done. You obviously didn't ask Gibson Brands : http://www.themusiczoo.com/product/2...Cremona-Brown/

[Steve DeRosa]

Yikes! $6300 for what essentially amounts to an L50-C ??? - and unless I miss my guess "formed wood" is heat-pressed rather than carved...

If it were anyone but Gibson I'd think this was just an early April Fools' joke...

[iim7V7IM7]

Steve,

What do you know about John as a luthier? What level of experience does he have or does he do this full or part time? I ask because $4k through a dealer (who gets a piece of the action), minus materials costs, divided by ~150 hours doesn't make much sense to me.

Curious

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

The all hand-carved, luthier-built $4000 17" jazzbox:

http://www.archtop.com/ac_15webb_ast.html

- and a mere $500 more gets you the upscale version:

http://www.archtop.com/ac_15webb_ss.html

A few words from the builder:

"I build guitars one at a time by hand (without a carving machine)...I have an aversion to using any prefabricated parts to the degree that I try to buy my wood in billets and resaw it myself. Typically I use Sitka spruce for the top, bracing, and linings, Bigleaf maple for the back and sides. For the neck Eastern rock maple is used. Ebony is used for the fingerboard, bridge, tailpiece, and finger rest."

As the word gets out this guy is going to be a real force to be reckoned with - and why anyone would even consider a factory axe at two or three times the price is beyond me...

[cogito]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

Steve,

What do you know about John as a luthier? What level of experience does he have or does he do this full or part time? I ask because $4k through a dealer (who gets a piece of the action), minus materials costs, divided by ~150 hours doesn't make much sense to me.

Curious

While it's true that this pricing would not seem sustainable for long, I suspect that the luthier's strategy at this point is to get some instruments in the hands of players and build his reputation so that he can get prices that better reflect his efforts - which seems like a reasonable strategy to me, given all of the competition at the higher price points.

[Pitar]

Beauty is very often construed as a calling card to sonic superiority and it's more often than not just a finish carpenter's handiwork; sonics suffering the inexperienced rendering of the materials as such. The luthier renders sound first, aesthetic accompaniment second. The builder confuses the two to my ear. I've played many of the so-called boutique builder's products and consider them aptly named. Only a few I'd ascribe the title luthier to. All subjective, of course, but that's the nature of it in it's entirety. It's when someone attempts objectivity the whole of it gets diminished to the sole value of debate.

[StuartDay]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

Steve,

What do you know about John as a luthier? What level of experience does he have or does he do this full or part time? I ask because $4k through a dealer (who gets a piece of the action), minus materials costs, divided by ~150 hours doesn't make much sense to me.

Curious

I dont know much about him. but after doing a little research it seems that he runs a dentistry practice. So I would assume that he is not a full time luthier. But, I could be wrong.

You are right though, it doesn't really add up. I understand the allure of the $4,000 archtop and ten years ago I think it was doable… but the fact is there is a reason "they" or…. "us" say it can't realistically be done. Because when you add up the costs of running a full time lutherie practice, building hand made (hand carved) archtop guitars, using instrument quality materials… selling guitars at that price-point just doesn't work out as a viable means to make a living (without some other revenue stream coming from somewhere). I've spent days pouring over numbers to try to make it work and it doesn't.

So, while there are guys who pop up from time to time who have the right set of variables in their lives that make this a workable model… most of us full time luthiers dont consider that to be a workable pricepoint if we want any quality of life.

The guitar does look really nice though and I wish him luck and hope that anyone who buys the instrument is very happy with it. I'd be interested in learning more about the guitar and the maker.

[backdrifter]

Don't Campellone's prices for the Standard series start at $4,800? For the difference, I'd rather go with a known entity with a stellar reputation like Mark.

Still, they look very nice.

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

...What do you know about John as a luthier? What level of experience does he have or does he do this full or part time? I ask because $4k through a dealer (who gets a piece of the action), minus materials costs, divided by ~150 hours doesn't make much sense to me...Curious...

Originally Posted by backdrifter

Don't Campellone's prices for the Standard series start at $4,800? For the difference, I'd rather go with a known entity with a stellar reputation like Mark...

Admittedly not much, but then again I didn't know much about Mark Campellone - whose current entry-level instruments coincidentally start in the same price range as the Webb Seaside - back in the '80s either; seems this guy has a handle on his craft, though - according to the listings at archtop.com they got Howard Alden's stamp of approval, and I think we'd both agree his tone credentials need no further introduction...

Originally Posted by StuartDay

...I understand the allure of the $4,000 archtop and ten years ago I think it was doable…but the fact is there is a reason "they" or…."us" say it can't realistically be done. Because when you add up the costs of running a full time lutherie practice, building hand made (hand carved) archtop guitars, using instrument quality materials…selling guitars at that price-point just doesn't work out as a viable means to make a living (without some other revenue stream coming from somewhere). I've spent days pouring over numbers to try to make it work and it doesn't....So, while there are guys who pop up from time to time who have the right set of variables in their lives that make this a workable model… most of us full time luthiers don't consider that to be a workable pricepoint if we want any quality of life....

I wasn't talking about you or any other individual luthier - thirty-five years ago I lived two blocks from Vinnie Fodera's first shop, and I saw first-hand what it takes to get an operation of this type off the ground and keep it going. If you refer back to my original post you'll see that my comments were directed at factory-production instruments ("Custom Shop" label or not) that routinely sell for two and three times the price, and while everyone has his/her own idea of what constitutes their Holy Grail I personally can't justify an L-5C or Artist Award - much less a pressed-wood box worth no more than $2K in my book - when I can have a comparable hand-carved instrument for $4000-5000 from either John Webb or Mark Campellone...

[StuartDay]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Admittedly not much, but then again I didn't know much about Mark Campellone - whose current entry-level instruments coincidentally start in the same price range as the Webb Seaside - back in the '80s either; seems this guy has a handle on his craft, though - according to the listings at archtop.com they got Howard Alden's stamp of approval, and I think we'd both agree his tone credentials need no further introduction...



I wasn't talking about you or any other individual luthier - thirty-five years ago I lived two blocks from Vinnie Fodera's first shop, and I saw first-hand what it takes to get an operation of this type off the ground and keep it going. If you refer back to my original post you'll see that my comments were directed at factory-production instruments ("Custom Shop" label or not) that routinely sell for two and three times the price, and while everyone has his/her own idea of what constitutes their Holy Grail I personally can't justify an L-5C or Artist Award - much less a pressed-wood box worth no more than $2K in my book - when I can have a comparable hand-carved instrument for $4000-5000 from either John Webb or Mark Campellone...

I understand and that makes great sense. Mark is one of the only archtop builders I know who has been able to offer such great instruments at such affordable price-points. I even wrote him to talk specifically about that a while back. I respect him a lot for it. I didn't take offense or anything to your statements. I hear what your saying and think its a good way to think about it.

[Jabberwocky]

Meet Willy Webb, brother of John's : https://www.facebook.com/WillysWonderfulWoodworks .

[redir]

Well he certainly didn't invest a lot of money in that website

[Daddyo]

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

It can't be done. You obviously didn't ask Gibson Brands : http://www.themusiczoo.com/product/2...Cremona-Brown/

$6400 for a pressed top guitar? I like Gibson crowing about a new process. Good grief.

[louparte]

Beautiful.

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

The all hand-carved, luthier-built $4000 17" jazzbox:

http://www.archtop.com/ac_15webb_ast.html

- and a mere $500 more gets you the upscale version:

http://www.archtop.com/ac_15webb_ss.html

A few words from the builder:

"I build guitars one at a time by hand (without a carving machine)...I have an aversion to using any prefabricated parts to the degree that I try to buy my wood in billets and resaw it myself. Typically I use Sitka spruce for the top, bracing, and linings, Bigleaf maple for the back and sides. For the neck Eastern rock maple is used. Ebony is used for the fingerboard, bridge, tailpiece, and finger rest."

As the word gets out this guy is going to be a real force to be reckoned with - and why anyone would even consider a factory axe at two or three times the price is beyond me...

[jseth]

What a sweet looking instrument, that Webb! Amazing price, too... have yo guys had any dealings with archtop.com? I just sent them an email to talk about using my 1967 Gibson ES-175 against that Webb, figuring I might get part the asking price covered...

I need another guitar like I need ANOTHER hole in my head, but, come on! That Webb looks fantastic...

I understand the discussion bout the price, but I have fared very well by using a "new" luthier to get a great guitar. In 1979, I had Mark Angus build me my 6 string flat top acoustic guitar... maple w/ German spruce, Florentine cutaway, mahogany neck... and I have played that guitar professionally for the past 36 years and loved it the whole time!

Way back when, Mark and I settled on $800, including a case, for my #35... no frills or bling, just a very playable, "workingman's" guitar, exactly what I wanted at the time... so, make no mistake, there very well could be brilliant "new" builders who would be willing to take a loss to get business going...