What is the most natural sounding "preamp"?

[Hendrik]

Maybe the title needs some clarification. I'm mostly concerned about the fx loop or send/return that comes with most preamps nowadays.
I'd like to try out some pedals for my acoustic (Taylor 810e) and have read that input/output signal & impedance is something to be aware of.
Especially when mixing electric guitar pedals with line level instruments.

So basically I don't need an additional preamp (or do I ? I'm open for suggestions).
So I'm looking for either a preamp, that doesn't color the tone at all or some other way to match the signal (maybe some pedal or device I haven't found yet).

Any help with that would be awesome
I feel stuck after hours of research on this.

[Wyllys]

I think you answered your own question:

The one you DON'T hear is the best.

[Hendrik]

My question was about the "most" natural sounding to begin with, not the best (for obviously.. the best is the one you don't hear).
So try being a little more specific - have you tried different preamps?
What is your experience with using pedals? Is there a way to create an fx loop without a preamp?

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

Maybe the title needs some clarification. I'm mostly concerned about the fx loop or send/return that comes with most preamps nowadays.
I'd like to try out some pedals for my acoustic (Taylor 810e) and have read that input/output signal & impedance is something to be aware of.
Especially when mixing electric guitar pedals with line level instruments.

So basically I don't need an additional preamp (or do I ? I'm open for suggestions).
So I'm looking for either a preamp, that doesn't color the tone at all or some other way to match the signal (maybe some pedal or device I haven't found yet).

Any help with that would be awesome
I feel stuck after hours of research on this.

Two things:

1) Signal Strength. Determine the output voltage range of the sending unit (e.g., active or passive pickup). Determine the receiving unit's operating voltage range (not its power supply voltage). Make sure the two ranges are compatible and overlap.

2) Impedance. Determine the output impedance of the sending unit (this will vary based on frequency). Determine the receiving unit's input impedance (a constant value). Make sure the receiving unit's input impedance is between5 and 10 times greater than the impedance of the sending unit.

Your preamp question deals with #1 above, mostly.

[Spook]

- You're guitar is not line level. It's much lower. That's why you need a preamp.

- You're guitar has about a 10M output impedance. Electric guitars usually have 7K to 8K. (M=millions of ohms, K=thousands, impedance is more complex than resistance but wouldn't worry about it too much for this discussion). This is why an acoustic guitar pickup often sounds bad plugged into something designed for an electric guitar. Note that some, but far from all, pedals are made to deal with acoustic guitar pickups.

- FX Loops take care of all of this when it comes to guitar pedals. They handle pedals fine mixing them in while your preamp handles your guitar input.

- The exception is when you want to use rack mount equipment with your FX loop. Then you need to start reading manuals and experimenting to see what works with your specific setup.

[Hendrik]

@Spook - since I have an ES2 Pickup System in my Taylor it doesn't really need an additional preamp and the output impedance should be farily low due to the active pickup.
The output signal I'm not sure about. The ES2 runs pretty hot but it won't get anywhere near line level - true.
I guess it's somewhere around -20dBv if not higher. I actually just wrote Taylor Guitars to find out.

@sdelsolray - true, pedals have a certain signal input they're designed for.
Input Impedance of most pedals should handle outcoming impedance of the pickup just fine (since it's a looooot higher.. like Millions).
The nominal input is usually around -20dBv though. That's what I don't get.
This works fine with the low instrument output of e guitars but fx loops of amps and preamps run at line level.
So there shouldn't be a problem running signals above the -20dBv threshhold of pedals through them, right?

[lschwart]

You're not going to have any problem plugging your ES2 signal into an effects pedal. However, if you need to send the signal on to a mixing board, especially one that's not right by your side, you're probably going to want to either put a DI box at the end of your pedal train or use a preamp/DI with an FX loop and that has an input that can accommodate an active signal. For example, the Radial PZ-Pre, but there are lots of others.

Louis

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

@Spook - since I have an ES2 Pickup System in my Taylor it doesn't really need an additional preamp and the output impedance should be farily low due to the active pickup.
The output signal I'm not sure about. The ES2 runs pretty hot but it won't get anywhere near line level - true.
I guess it's somewhere around -20dBv if not higher. I actually just wrote Taylor Guitars to find out.
...

One of the persistent problems with many, many manufacturers is their unwillingness to publish basic specifications for the gear they make. I have no idea what the nominal operating output level of the Taylor ES2 pickup system is. I do remember reverse engineering (in a sense) the earlier Taylor ES system from the published specs of the Taylor K4 preamp/eq/DI. IIRC, it seemed to be somewhere below or near the -10 dBV consumer level standard, so your guess of -20 dBV is likely in the ballpark.

I don't know how robust pedal makers are with publishing specs. I don't use pedals.

Originally Posted by Hendrik

@sdelsolray - true, pedals have a certain signal input they're designed for.
Input Impedance of most pedals should handle outcoming impedance of the pickup just fine (since it's a looooot higher.. like Millions).
The nominal input is usually around -20dBv though. That's what I don't get.
This works fine with the low instrument output of e guitars but fx loops of amps and preamps run at line level.
So there shouldn't be a problem running signals above the -20dBv threshhold of pedals through them, right?

fx loops on amps and preamps run on (i) -4 dBu professional level, (ii) -10 dBV consumer level or (iii) dunno level because the specs aren't published. Of course, those points are simply the nominal operating level. The units operate just fine below that level (for a certain amount) and above that level (for a certain amount). Indeed, headroom is typically defined as the amount of gain a circuit/unit can handle above its nominal operating level before distortion.

Leaving impedance issues aside, and only speaking to signal strength issues, mismatching levels is usually not fatal, although it can introduce more noise in the signal path, limit (or increase) headroom or cause distortion.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

One of the persistent problems with many, many manufacturers is their unwillingness to publish basic specifications for the gear they make. I have no idea what the nominal operating output level of the Taylor ES2 pickup system is. I do remember reverse engineering (in a sense) the earlier Taylor ES system from the published specs of the Taylor K4 preamp/eq/DI. IIRC, it seemed to be somewhere below or near the -10 dBV consumer level standard, so your guess of -20 dBV is likely in the ballpark.

fx loops on amps and preamps run on (i) -4 dBu professional level, (ii) -10 dBV consumer level or (iii) dunno level because the specs aren't published. Of course, those points are simply the nominal operating level. The units operate just fine below that level (for a certain amount) and above that level (for a certain amount). Indeed, headroom is typically defined as the amount of gain a circuit/unit can handle above its nominal operating level before distortion.

Leaving impedance issues aside, and only speaking to signal strength issues, mismatching levels is usually not fatal, although it can introduce more noise in the signal path, limit (or increase) headroom or cause distortion.

That's interesting. I wondered why the specs are nowhere to be found. So it's likely the ES2 does actually run near consumer line level. What about the headroom?
Cause I guess that's what I'm looking for. When a pedal is designed for -20dBv input there should be enough headroom to handle consumer line level..
at least that would make sense since a lot of amps I looked at send -5 to -2 dBv through their fx loops (so above cons. line level).

[Fairlight]

I can't explain all the numbers, but my LR Baggs Para DI sounds great (no color) with my Taylor 816. The DI has an effects loop that I run a few pedals through. Into a snake, to the PA about 300 feet, plenty of level. I also have a very old Boss AD5 which I really like if I just need a simple pre/DI.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Hendrik]

Hey thanks for all the help and suggestions! I figured now that I'll eventually go for a double pickup solution, running one straight through the DI and using the second (like an m80) to mix in some pedals. I'll keep the para DI in mind for that >>>

[ericcsong]

If you end up going dual source, go for the pendulum sps-1. Most transparent preamp I've ever used.

[briggleman]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

Hey thanks for all the help and suggestions! I figured now that I'll eventually go for a double pickup solution, running one straight through the DI and using the second (like an m80) to mix in some pedals. I'll keep the para DI in mind for that >>>

I was initially going to chime in on this discussion with the following suggestion but as the posts progressed I thought it was too much, now not so sure. So here goes my thoughts on your situation.

Look at the Pigtronix Keymaster pedal. Its a studio grade effects mixer. It basically will automatically adjust for all impedance issues, has dual effects loops with the ability to mix in the amount of effects (mix in some pedals), the ability to adjust the levels of both the input and output signal, runs off of included 18v power supply, active DI, expression pedal capability for additional control of effects blending and it does a lot more. I use one and its on my acoustic board as a permanent fixture. Very few products like it on the market.

https://www.pigtronix.com/products/keymaster/