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  #1  
Old 08-25-2010, 05:06 PM
RecordingKing00 RecordingKing00 is offline
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Default Dreaded neck angle gamble when buying online.

Just received an otherwise nice yamaha FG730s, but the neck angle is a bit suspect and the action at the 12th fret is about 1/4 inch. With not much saddle sitting above the bridge at 1/8, I am left no choice but to return to seller.
This guitar was listed as "low action" which I know can be subjective but think for the most part, "low" action would not imply 1/4 inch at the 12th fret.

Bummer.

The hunt continues.
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:30 PM
66strummer 66strummer is offline
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Probably not a bad idea to get detailed pics (neck/ saddle especially, and at different frets) from the seller whenever possible. Good luck with the return and the hunt. It's tough to know whether a seller has a clue about neck angle problems or is oblivious to this kind of thing. I guess he'll know now if he didn't before.
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:34 PM
Jeff M Jeff M is offline
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For me, neck angle issues are one of the main deterrants to purchasing a guitar sight unseen. Even from a custom builder.
I've seen many brand new guitars with what is supposedly "low action" with what I would consider a relatively high/high action with not enough saddle to work with.
William Cumpiano even comments on this on his web site;

"But many guitars fail this neck-angle test. Unfortunately, a good neck angle is a rare thing, indeed -- even, alas, on many brand-new guitars hanging in the average music store.

I recently visited a major guitar factory to assist a good friend in selecting a guitar (he was an ace dealer and his reward was to pick one out). Only one guitar in a dozen had anything even approaching an ideal neck angle. He couldn't believe it. The guys in the factory got most upset at me. I felt like the messenger with bad news that was about to be killed. Most of the guitars we examined (which, indeed, were ready for shipping), had string actions higher than would be comfortable for the ordinary player, and saddles which invariably were too low.

When a new guitar like that reaches its destination and its already-low saddle is adjusted (by the music store techie) down even further in order to remedy the stiff action, there will be nothing left to adjust over the guitar's long future of progressive settling-in. Virtually all the guitars we examined in the shipping room of that guitar factory were candidates for an expensive neck reset barely five or six months down the road -- if not right then and there. After examining about fifty guitars, we found one that happened to have nice low action, and a full-height saddle. I don't want to go through that ordeal again. "


http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Newslet...wsletter3.html
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:39 PM
RecordingKing00 RecordingKing00 is offline
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Interesting about the crap shoot neck-angle bonanza. Funny, the best neck angle I ever experienced was on a simple Walden D550. That sucker had a full saddle, 3/4 inch string height at the body and sweet low action at the 12th fret. The ruler cleared the bridge with ease. It played like a fender strat.
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:47 PM
66strummer 66strummer is offline
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Someone posted a Youtube link last night on another thread showing 1 of the guys at National setting the neck angle on a Resophonic guitar. It seemed like a time consuming process. Perhaps in many cases the proper time isn't spent to assure it's done right.
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:49 PM
backliner backliner is offline
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This is exactly the issue that kept me sour on flat-tops - by design - for a long time.
Many periods in my life I could not afford to be an original owner of a guitar that I figured sooner or later would need a neck reset.

I got burned on a used '76 D-18 (but at least it was educational: first thing I look at now).

I agree 100% with the article cited.

My '61 J-45 (I was the original owner) never budged!

I also bought a brand new (Montana-built) '96 Gibson Gospel once that had so much bone sticking out I was able to get the action like an electric, and the sound was still good and there was enough bone left for future adjustments later. I was able to keep quite a bit of relief in the neck as well (for later). That thing played like a jazz guitar and sounded good to boot.

Sadly, during low money periods it seemed like every used flat-top I looked at needed a neck reset. I was able to buy a Larrivee which was fine, then resorted to archtops only for several years.

Tired of (affordable) archtop sounds I recently found a NOS Tacoma-built Guild (under FMIC auspices) that was correct and I was able to get a deal on it. Except for Larrivees, there's a LOT of flat-tops (new as well) that I would eye suspiciously.
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:51 PM
Raj Raj is offline
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Default Best way

Might be a silly question. What is the best way to check if the neck angle is right or not?
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:58 PM
66strummer 66strummer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raj View Post
Might be a silly question. What is the best way to check if the neck angle is right or not?


Have someone do it for you!


Actually there is a detailed way to check it on Frank Ford's site. Someone here will likely provide the link. I don't have it bookmarked at the moment.
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Old 08-25-2010, 05:59 PM
backliner backliner is offline
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I generally sight from the butt end of the guitar towards the neck. There should appear to be a slight (maybe 1 degree) back angle from where the neck joins the body to the tuning head. This is NOT a backbow to the neck, but a clearly seen back angle to the whole neck from the 14th fret (the planes of the body top and neck).

You can also carefully lay a straight egde down the top to see if the neck appears to fall away a bit as it leaves the body joint and goes toward the head.
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Old 08-25-2010, 06:07 PM
RecordingKing00 RecordingKing00 is offline
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You can also tell by looking at how much saddle is left and how low the action is at the 12th fret. I know it's not exact measurements but you can get a quick idea. I typically like a full saddle with decent action to begin with. If the saddle is already filed down to 1/8 inch and the action is not decent, that for me is a bad angle.
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Old 08-25-2010, 06:14 PM
Kent Chasson Kent Chasson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raj View Post
Might be a silly question. What is the best way to check if the neck angle is right or not?
There's no universal rule but if it were me I would:

-Start by making sure the neck relief is OK, usually .004" - .010" at the 7th fret.

-I would then want to be able to get the low E action to 7/64" (high E at 5/64") at the 12th fret and still have a minimum of 1/16" saddle above the bridge with the low E a minimum of 7/16" above the top.

That's minimum for an older guitar that is not apt to deform a lot more.

It would also help to know that the humidity was in a reasonable range when those measurements are taken.

Some guitars and some players might have different needs but that's a place to start.
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Old 08-26-2010, 12:19 AM
Jeff M Jeff M is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raj View Post
Might be a silly question. What is the best way to check if the neck angle is right or not?
Some more info for you. From Frank Ford's site;
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musi...neckangle.html

and from the William Cumpiano article I linked to above;

"With the straightedge thus placed on the frets, its far end should just "tickle" the top of the bridge on a well settled-in, well-used guitar. On a brand-new guitar that has yet to settle in (or on a 12-string guitar, which is expected to always settle considerably under tension) the straightedge should clear the bridge by not over 1/16-inch (1.5mm). There is an exception: on new 6- and 12-string guitars which are intended to carry medium gauge strings exclusively, the straightedge should clear the bridge by 3/32" (2.5 mm). On a classic guitar, the straightedge should not clear the bridge, but rather should touch the front of the bridge about 1/16-inch BELOW the top edge of the front lip, since lower tension and higher average actions are the norm on classicals.

Usually on a guitar with a workable, rather than ideal neck angle, the straightedge will just bump into the bridge a hair below the top edge. In that case (following the guidelines indicated above) a gentle recountouring of the bridge will make everything shine--on the cheap. "
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