Really strange and interesting Coyote experience

[Nailpicker]

Originally Posted by KevWind

As I said because of time frame and behavior rabies is not the issue

Not sure what time frame you are referring to.

"The incubation period — the period of time between exposure to a disease and the onset of clinical signs — for rabies can vary greatly. The typical incubation period is three to eight weeks, but it can be as little as nine days or as long as several years in some rare cases." (and sometimes not so rare depending upon species)

I have an acquaintance who lived and let live with a racoon for most of a summer. For most of the summer it exhibited non-aggressive characteristics much like your coyote. It seemed like a rather laid back, easy going critter...until suddenly it wasn't. Fortunately it ended well for my acquaintance (who had remained leery and vigilant), not so well for rocky racoon.

Originally Posted by KevWind

Not really that would be very dependant on far too many variables to be definitive. While it is true that coyotes can and sometimes do kill small dog it is also true that bigger can and have killed coyotes or sent them bloodied and hightailing it (which i have seen)

Exactly, even with a large dog. I do believe from experience and observation however that wild animals display an endurance, strength, resolve and resourcefulness lacking in most domestic dogs regardless of size.

Originally Posted by KevWind

All true except that is not what is happening in this situation there is no pack lurking in the shadows because there are no shadows. This is wide open country and the first thing my wife looked for and both her and I look for every time since, are other coyote's and they are not around.

You know your terrain better than I do of course. But I've seen wild critters hunker, hide and lurk in uncanny ways and places to the point you can almost (or literally) step on them before being aware of their presence even in seemingly open country. A lot of (most?) people like to think of themselves as a modern day Daniel Boone, eyes, hearing, instincts and nature savvy finely tuned. Most are very wrong.

Regardless, good luck. I hope it is as innocuous as you describe. Never hurts to think the positive.

[Cypress Knee]

Coyotes, wolves, jackals, dingos, foxes whatever. They do not possess the genetic makeup that makes them compatible with human companionship, and that includes with domestic dogs.

Everything is a food source.


If you want to attempt to lure this coyote into your family fold, I would suggest that you have no children and no other pets in the household.

CK

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Nailpicker

Not sure what time frame you are referring to.

"The incubation period — the period of time between exposure to a disease and the onset of clinical signs — for rabies can vary greatly. The typical incubation period is three to eight weeks, but it can be as little as nine days or as long as several years in some rare cases." (and sometimes not so rare depending upon species)

I have an acquaintance who lived and let live with a racoon for most of a summer. For most of the summer it exhibited non-aggressive characteristics much like your coyote. It seemed like a rather laid back, easy going critter...until suddenly it wasn't. Fortunately it ended well for my acquaintance (who had remained leery and vigilant), not so well for rocky racoon.

True, but during the incubation period there is usually not a significant change in behavior patterns . Because the virus has not yet reached the brain. When it does reach the brain is when there is a change in behavior and it usually happens quickly and is usually very apparent and after this behavioral change usually 3 to 5 days after reaching the brain the animal dies within another 7 to 10 days. And the animal is also not infectious until the virus reaches the saliva which also does not occur until a few days before to a few days after displaying symptoms
That is the time frame I was referring to. Is it possible the behavior might somehow be connected to incubation ? Well anything is possible, but is not very likely.

About the racoon to clarify, was it killed and tested and diagnosed with rabies? Or are you pointing out that wild animals that become habituated to humans can eventually become aggressive. Which is a very valid point and always a concern and a consideration. Of course this change in behavior is not unheard of with domestic dogs either.

Exactly, even with a large dog. I do believe from experience and observation however that wild animals display an endurance, strength, resolve and resourcefulness lacking in most domestic dogs regardless of size.

While I would agree in a very loose general sense pound for pound wild animals are usually tougher than domestic, But still there are a ton of variables at play , for example, a well fed and fit dog may actually have more energy to tap into than wild periodically fed coyote .

You know your terrain better than I do of course. But I've seen wild critters hunker, hide and lurk in uncanny ways and places to the point you can almost (or literally) step on them before being aware of their presence even in seemingly open country. A lot of (most?) people like to think of themselves as a modern day Daniel Boone, eyes, hearing, instincts and nature savvy finely tuned. Most are very wrong.

I could not agree more, most people are unaware of even what to look for in terms actually observing, particularly when it comes to spotting wild critters. But then most people also do not survive almost exclusively on big game meat for 30 years. And while I did occasionally use a 50 Cal. Hawkin and killed Elk, Deer, and even Antelope with it I always thought dressing up in leather and fur caps was kinda silly.

Regardless, good luck. I hope it is as innocuous as you describe. Never hurts to think the positive.

Thanks. Never even hinted it was innocuous. I said it was it has not been aggressive, there is a big difference. But maybe most people don't know that either.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Cypress Knee

Coyotes, wolves, jackals, dingos, foxes whatever. They do not possess the genetic makeup that makes them compatible with human companionship, and that includes with domestic dogs.

Everything is a food source.


If you want to attempt to lure this coyote into your family fold, I would suggest that you have no children and no other pets in the household.

CK

Where did you get this silliness?
Did you read my OP I said the coyote might want to join our pack, not that it would be welcome. Might help to read the thread before injecting out of the blue inapplicable statements .


]

Coyotes, wolves, jackals, dingos, foxes whatever. They do not possess the genetic makeup that makes them compatible with human companionship, and that includes with domestic dogs.

Really ? Given that domestic dog and wolf mitochondrial DNA differs by about 1% or less, that's quite a proclamation.

Not to mention if "everything" was food source then the young would not survive to procreate the species

I'm sorry but attempting to view wild animal behavior only thru an anthropomorphic lens, is no more silly or mistaken than trying to reduce the complex social behaviors of predators to a single buzz phrase.

[Tico]

It never ceases to amaze me how when you post something on an Internet forum people take it and spin what you wrote into many directions.
(I've just done it with this post.)

It may make for entertaining reading, but it annoys the original author.

[Herb Hunter]

There has been at least one occasion where one dog prevailed against a pair of coyotes:

[HodgdonExtreme]

I would theorize for a typical dog to prevail against a wild coyote, the dog would need to weigh ~1.5x as much as the coyote.

All bets are off if the coyote isn't alone and they can double/triple team the dog.

I've thought about this, considering I have two ~65lb weimaraners and see coyotes in my back yard pretty regularly.

There is solid rationale why laws throughout most of the country provide for year-round open season on coyotes, with zero licensing requirements in most cases...

[MrDB]

It's open season on them here. There are some groups of hunters that will kill 100 of them in a month's time.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

I would theorize for a typical dog to prevail against a wild coyote, the dog would need to weigh ~1.5x as much as the coyote.

All bets are off if the coyote isn't alone and they can double/triple team the dog.

I've thought about this, considering I have two ~65lb weimaraners and see coyotes in my back yard pretty regularly.

I've no qualms whatsoever shooting a coyote IF I can be sure my target is in fact a coyote and not somebody's pet- and if I'm sure it's a safe shot.

I used to feel bad about "senselessly killing" a beautiful wild animal like a coyote. That is, until I saw several of them eating the anus/colon/large intestine out of a newly born calf while it was still alive.

EDIT: Apologies for the graphic mental image, but there is solid rationale why laws throughout most of the country provide for year-round open season on coyotes, with zero licensing requirements in most cases...

Emotionally based justifications are poor reasons for killing predators.
There is no need to apologize for relating the stark reality of predation, it is not pretty. Nor should that reality be subject to a sense of offended sensibilities in making decisions to kill coyotes or not. Not to mention the reality of the fact that while killing a single coyote might make you feel better, it will have no effect on keeping pray animals from being disemboweled while alive. Something BTW that many predators do..... it's called nature.

And given it is simply nature, perhaps consider the irony and hypocrisy in the notion that somehow the human method for acquiring our veal is justified and honorable, and the coyotes method justifies summary execution. And that objectively if you feel the emotional need to interfere in natures process, the only remotely justified action in such a situation would be for you to have put a bullet in the brain of calf , not the coyotes then, and especially not at some arbitrary later time . Ultimately the calf is just as dead regardless of method and in objective terms of reality, the only real differences is we kill the calf only to satisfy our tastebuds, the coyote does it to survive. And we kill the coyote only to satisfy our personal pleasure in killing wild animals, or to needlessly acquire it'
its fur for display or to bolster our wardrobe.

Actually the "solid rational" behind laws governing coyote hunting are not based on imagined anthropomorphic notions about the uncomfortable aspects of the reality of predation, or a misplaced sense of revenge, or even the prevention of such predation .
They are based on two things, the revenues hunting generates for the state and the fact that biologically Coyotes are highly prolific, adaptable, and the numbers stay high regardless of all the efforts of control.

Also to my knowledge only a handful of predominantly western states do not require a license to hunt coyote, and "throughout most of the country" it does in fact , require a license

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

There has been at least one occasion where one dog prevailed against a pair of coyotes:

It is interesting how variation can sometimes discount generalization

[HodgdonExtreme]

Great post, KevWind!

I think you misread me. I've no issue with the overall brutality of nature; and the relationship between predator and prey. Nor was I suggesting that dispatching a single coyote will solve a coyote problem/infestation.

I'm saying coyotes can sure be relentless and dangerous nuisances around the homefront - and often very worthy of receiving some high speed .223" or .243" lead.

Regarding hunting regulations of coyote:

http://digitalcrosshairs.com/coyote-hunting.php

If you peruse this, you'll find that most states (even california!) allow year-round open season on coyote and no bag limit. While some states require absolutely no license, I concede that most states require the hunter to possess some kind of hunting license.

Essentially all other species require a species-specific license and generally a short season with tight bag limits.

My point is simply that coyote have a long track record of requiring high velocity lead injections.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by MrDB

It's open season on them here. There are some groups of hunters that will kill 100 of them in a month's time.

And I see it does require a license

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

Great post, KevWind!

I think you misread me. I've no issue with the overall brutality of nature; and the relationship between predator and prey. Nor was I suggesting that dispatching a single coyote will solve a coyote problem/infestation.

I'm saying coyotes can sure be relentless and dangerous nuisances around the homefront - and often very worthy of receiving some high speed .223" or .243" lead.

Regarding hunting regulations of coyote:

http://digitalcrosshairs.com/coyote-hunting.php

If you peruse this, you'll find that most states (even california!) allow year-round open season on coyote and no bag limit. While some states require absolutely no license, I concede that most states require the hunter to possess some kind of hunting license.

Essentially all other species require a species-specific license and generally a short season with tight bag limits.

My point is simply that coyote have a long track record of requiring high velocity lead injections.

"worthy" is in the eye of the beholder is it not ?

And let's be honest "coyote have a long track record of requiring high velocity lead injections" Which actually translates to "requiring" being a euphemism for "I like to kill coyotes" The reality is coyotes "require" nothing from humans

As I said it is the prolific reproductive ability and associated revenues of hunting that still drive the open nature of state regs . Well that and the ill-informed historical dregs and myology about predation in general and the monetary self interested push to eradicate any potential threat to livestock that immigrated to his country with the white invasion.

[Nyghthawk]

Killing predator animals is usually a bad thing to do to the ecosystem. Coyotes tend to keep rodents and other varmints under control. Eliminate (or drastically reduce) their population, the pest population explodes.

Unfortunately, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by KevWind

"worthy" is in the eye of the beholder is it not ?

It definitely is!

Originally Posted by KevWind

And let's be honest "coyote have a long track record of requiring high velocity lead injections" Which actually translates to "requiring" being a euphemism for "I like to kill coyotes" The reality is coyotes "require" nothing from humans

While that may be an honest statement for some people, it isn't for me. While I have dispatched a few, and would certainly do it again, I don't like killing them.

Additionally, for coyotes to sustain their huge population - they do indeed require humans. It is the human lifestyle of concentrating food sources, as well as copious human refuse that provides coyotes the ability to thrive in such numbers. But that's a different topic.

Originally Posted by KevWind

As I said it is the prolific reproductive ability and associated revenues of hunting that still drive the open nature of state regs . Well that and the ill-informed historical dregs and myology about predation in general and the monetary self interested push to eradicate any potential threat to livestock that immigrated to his country with the white invasion.

Disagree, mostly.

There is always graft and corruption within any bureaucracy, and I'm sure money has *something* to do with hunting season regulations...

However, if money was the key driving factor then we'd see many other species subject to the "year-round open season" that coyotes are. Not the 2 week window where you're allowed to harvest no more than 2 deer, one of which must be a doe. If money was the key factor, there'd be a specific license for coyote. Perhaps you'd need to buy tags for each one killed. Point is, there are lots of things that could easily be implemented by states and/or the Feds to rake in more money off coyote hunting, so I simply don't buy your argument that revenue is the motivator for the lawfulness of killing as many coyotes as you want all year long.

Essentially every other species has tight regulations and controls that, if removed, would allow the state and Fed to collect more revenues - yet the regulations remain.

Except the coyote