What spread would you chose for this multi-scale build?

MBE · #1 10-20-2014, 08:47 AM

I'm thinking of commissioning a bit of an odd duck - a multi-scale 12-string, so I'd like to call on the knowledge and experience of both the players and builders here for some input.

I string my current 12-string (Taylor LKSM-12) .013-.056 and tune down 3 semitones to C# standard, and then often further down from that point into the downtuned analogues of DADGAD, open D, open G, and open C. It may not be a surprise to learn that I'm a Leo Kottke fan. Having said that, intonation and (lack of) string tension on the bass strings is understandably an issue with the 25.5" scale.

I have small hands though and a long-scale (26" or 26.5") 12-string would be very challenging to handle. In fact, 24.9" is my favourite scale on my 6-strings and is the most comfortable for me. So, I'm thinking of going multi-scale with this guitar. Scales I'm considering include 25"-26", 25"-26.5", and 25.5"-26.5". Don't know if I'm adventurous enough to try as high as 27" on the 6th (12th?) string. As you can see, I'm debating a 1" vs 1.5" spread, as well as whether the "starting point" is 25" (short scale and comfortable) vs 25.5" (standard scale and higher tension for the low tuning). I have played a mildly fanned (3/4") guitar which was great, but have never tried out something like a 1.5" fan.

Given the considerations above - what would you suggest as far as scale length goes? Any input is greatly appreciated.

dekutree64 · #2 10-20-2014, 10:54 AM

I generally recommend a maximum of 1" difference for 6 strings, but the wider neck on a 12 string does make the fan less intense. 1.5" is still probably a little much though. I prefer pretty minimal myself... building a 6 string with 25.5-26" right now. But 24.75-25.5" is my favorite for standard tuned guitars. So on a 12 string for drop tuning, 25-26" sounds good.

Or how about 640-670mm? That's about 25.2" - 26.375", but still nice looking numbers in mm

So about 1.18" difference, which should give nearly the same fret angles on a 2" nut width as 1" difference on a 1 3/4" nut width.

tyamamoto · #3 10-20-2014, 07:42 PM

This is 25.5"~27", 12fret multiscale 12string I built for Steve Davison.

s2y · #4 10-20-2014, 07:46 PM

My 7 string is 27"-25", which is a hair too much. I'd probably want a little less fan on a 12 string. If you're looking at detuning, perhaps a longer overall scale length with about 1" fan and use a capo to get to standard pitch?

ChuckS · #5 10-20-2014, 08:05 PM

What about keeping the scale length shorter, where you are more comfortable, and have the guitar built for heavier gauge strings to accommodate your lowered tunings?

Bruce Sexauer · #6 10-20-2014, 11:32 PM

It seems to me that the advantages of the MultiScale are largely lost in a twelve string. What might be gained in the west string would be squandered in the octaves, I mean.

tadol · #7 10-21-2014, 05:28 AM

Well, you'd still have the show-offy factor, which is the most important part of some custom-builds -

Howard Klepper · #8 10-21-2014, 09:44 AM

IMO if you want your low string to often be tuned to B you need a minimum 27" scale for it, and more would be better. And if you went for a 1.5" scale spread on an acoustic 12-string, tone will be compromised by bracing, and by the bridge size and placement. Plus the scales for the low octave strings will not be appropriate. And fretting is not so transparent with that kind of scale spread.

You may have unrealistic expectations about what a multi-scale guitar can do for you.

MBE · #9 10-21-2014, 08:01 PM

Many thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. You've all given me some things to think about - especially the luthiers, all of whom I respect very much.

I had wondered about the many competing interests on a 12-string, including the fact that a longer scale on the bass strings means a longer scale on the corresponding octave strings as well.

Thank you, Mr. Klepper, for spotting that I perhaps was being overly optimistic regarding the advantages that multi-scale might hold for me. I feel though that the 12-string guitar can be an art in compromise at the best of times (as anyone who has tuned one can attest!). While perhaps a 27" scale or more might be "ideal" for a low B or C from a tension perspective, I suppose I am trying to walk a line between ideal tension and ideal playability for my hand size. After all, my current LKSM is 25.5" scale and has been tuned to C for 2 decades in Leo Kottke's hands despite the numerous challenges that that presents. I know Leo did try a 27" or 28" scale 12-string at one point (possibly Pete Seger's?) and commented that it was the best-sounding 12-string he had ever tried, but was almost unplayable.

Recognizing the many compromises involved and the feedback from those in this thread, I am currently thinking that going with a 1" fan is more practical from a design and playability perspective. Whether that 1" is 25-26", 25.5-26.5", or 26-27" (with adjustments to string gauge accordingly) will be the question that I continue to ask myself.

I am ok with settling for "more ideal" than my current 25.5" LKSM, which I love regardless of its imperfections, rather than "perfectly ideal" which would essentially be a true baritone 12-string.

I would love to continue to hear people's thoughts - this forum is a wealth of knowledge and I have appreciated all the input so far.

murrmac123 · #10 10-31-2014, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MBE

I feel though that the 12-string guitar can be an art in compromise at the best of times (as anyone who has tuned one can attest!).

It becomes less of a compromise with an individually compensated saddle (and nut).

Whereas such compensation is merely desirable in a normal 12 string, on a multiscale it would become an absolute necessity, and the greater the offset, the more it would be necessary.