Opinions on Luthiers - path to being well known

[Stevied63]

I'm interested in people's (especially luthiers) opinions on the path to being well known (in a good way). Whenever I see lists, or articles, that reference the "best" luthiers, there are a handful of names that bubble up. What I'm wondering is if those luthiers become well known by virtue of having a famous player either explicitly, or implicitly, endorse their guitars - or whether they become well known (and highly respected) because word gets out in the guitar community (I realize the two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive - one can precede the other) that these are special.

The reason I am curious is that, I see many small production luthier built guitars on this forum that look beautiful - fantastic build quality, top notch materials, and luthiers who deeply care about their craft. I can't attest personally to tonal qualities, but have to assume that, based on people's comments, the guitars sound wonderful (although this is highly subjective). However many of these luthiers aren't necessarily widely known, and written and talked about - and I'm curious if that path to widely known and respected has to go through a famous player endorsement, or can it happen just by word if mouth first (and a player endorsement comes later)? Are there (and I'm using this just as an example) Kim Walker quality (build and tonal quality) guitars being built out there, but because nobody famous has talked about their guitrs, they just aren't well known?

PS Perhaps I mean "path to "greatness"" l as opposed to path to well known.""

[redir]

Good marketing and a quality product to back it up

There's a lot of people building good instruments these days, the market is saturated so it makes it even more difficult to break through.

It's a lot like being a musician in general. One of the very best guitar players, and I mean seriously -the best, I know lives right in my small town and makes a simple living as a teacher. He would give Steve Via, Al Di Meola, Frank Gambalie, and so many more a run for their money. But he's never made it big and probably never will.

Luck in many cases has a lot to do with it but most importantly you have to be building fine guitars inside and out.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by Stevied63

I'm interested in people's (especially luthiers) opinions on the path to being well known (in a good way). Whenever I see lists, or articles, that reference the "best" luthiers, there are a handful of names that bubble up. What I'm wondering is if those luthiers become well known by virtue of having a famous player either explicitly, or implicitly, endorse their guitars - or whether they become well known (and highly respected) because word gets out in the guitar community (I realize the two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive - one can precede the other) that these are special.

The reason I am curious is that, I see many small production luthier built guitars on this forum that look beautiful - fantastic build quality, top notch materials, and luthiers who deeply care about their craft. I can't attest personally to tonal qualities, but have to assume that, based on people's comments, the guitars sound wonderful (although this is highly subjective). However many of these luthiers aren't necessarily widely known, and written and talked about - and I'm curious if that path to widely known and respected has to go through a famous player endorsement, or can it happen just by word if mouth first (and a player endorsement comes later)? Are there (and I'm using this just as an example) Kim Walker quality (build and tonal quality) guitars being built out there, but because nobody famous has talked about their guitrs, they just aren't well known?

PS Perhaps I mean "path to "greatness"" l as opposed to path to well known.""

I believe much of the popularity of most luthiers comes down to one thing: marketing. I have played plenty of unknown builders who build stellar guitars, and I have been quite disappointed by many who have "made it." The vast majority of hand built guitars I have played have stellar woodworking and mediocre tone. The market is totally flooded with such guitars. The number of builders who are truly gifted at making a stellar sounding and playing guitar is quite small.

Many of them have great reputations. Many of them are somewhat obscure. Those who market heavily become popular. Those who don't, don't. There are exceptions, but that's mostly how I see it.

[gitarro]

Marketing and good PR are a big part of the answer but not the qhole anawer.

It is like the emperor's new clothes. If the luthier didnt have the tone shaping chops, the hype will inevitably fade away no matter how sterling is his woodworking skills.

The two greatest luthiers whose guitars i have played are long time luthiers of several decades' experience who have produced guitars which to me represent the peak of acoustic fingerstyle guitar. When they have hit the mark, it is exceedingly difficult to get near them by any other luthiers whose work i have tried. So its not just hype but at times the master luthiers really are maater luthiers.

[invguy921]

Originally Posted by justonwo

I believe much of the popularity of most luthiers comes down to one thing: marketing. I have played plenty of unknown builders who build stellar guitars, and I have been quite disappointed by many who have "made it." The vast majority of hand built guitars I have played have stellar woodworking and mediocre tone. The market is totally flooded with such guitars. The number of builders who are truly gifted at making a stellar sounding and playing guitar is quite small.

Many of them have great reputations. Many of them are somewhat obscure. Those who market heavily become popular. Those who don't, don't. There are exceptions, but that's mostly how I see it.

Marcus, I agree 100%. I'd add to the "marketing" side...photography skills. There are a number of GREAT builders who simply haven't taken the time or spent the money to buy a good camera and learn to take simple photographs with lighting...photography 101. With so little time and money to be spent to do so, and so MUCH benefit, (ie: low cost, high benefit) I'm shocked at how many don't do it.

I too have played guitars that cost $2500-$3500 that sound better than some priced at $15000 and more...exactly what Marcus said...stellar woodworking, average tone. In fact, I can (but absolutely won't) name a few that are simply BAD builders...as evidenced by their guitars that are falling apart in record numbers...cosmetically compelling, mechanically unsound. So, buyers beware...check a track record before you hand over your heard earned money to someone who you think will build you an amazing lifetime guitar...ie: look beyond the marketing.

To the OP, if you are looking to find a builder who can build you a guitar at a reasonable price and get the tone you want, just spending some time looking at what a few notable people are doing will give you a good start...Marcus being one of them. If you're wanting to become a builder and looking for tips, be prepared for a hard road. Unlike several years ago, the playing field is now full with many great builders and many "wanna-bes"...and "others". There are SOOO many building now that even people like me who like to think I know a fair amount on the topic see many names I've never heard of.

I said a lot...hopefully something here helps with the answers you seek.

[iim7V7IM7]

There has been success via a variety of scenarios. Traditionally, aside from a long-term record of producing excellent guitars (1), there were three enhancing factors all through association with a musician, vintage or builder ((2, 3 and 4).

1) Consistently superlative quality in sound and execution over many years
2) Scenario 1 plus a famous musician endorsement
3) Excellent sounding guitars with deep vintage guitar repair background
4) Excellent execution skills with an affiliation through apprenticeship with a famous luthier

More recently, with the advent of the internet with luthier websites, forums and social media a new route has appeared (5).

5) Excellent execution skills with prolific photography and internet presence

My $.02

[LSemmens]

For every successful (insert whatever profession you like) there are many also rans. That does not mean that they were any less proficient at their trade, in fact, more than a few were most likely better at it. Often it just boils down to right place, right time. I recently saw (someone posted a link) an act on one of those Idol, shows, that was absolutely brilliant, however, their area of entertainment was not what you'd expect out of one of these shows, and I will be surprised if they win (even though they deserve to). Given their talent, they could certainly have made it big as (I think the field I am describing is correct) foley artists however, getting noticed by the big production companies is often just the "luck of the draw". So, just because a luthier is famous, does not necessarily mean that he is the best, but it does mean that he was good enough to be accepted as a master of his trade by virtue of the fact that enough people (of influence) chose to support him.

[murrmac123]

This thread belongs in the General section IMO.

[Stevied63]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

This thread belongs in the General section IMO.

Yes, perhaps. I put it here because I wanted some of the custom luthiers to comment.

[LaFaro]

Originally Posted by justonwo

I believe much of the popularity of most luthiers comes down to one thing: marketing. I have played plenty of unknown builders who build stellar guitars, and I have been quite disappointed by many who have "made it." The vast majority of hand built guitars I have played have stellar woodworking and mediocre tone. The market is totally flooded with such guitars. The number of builders who are truly gifted at making a stellar sounding and playing guitar is quite small.

Many of them have great reputations. Many of them are somewhat obscure. Those who market heavily become popular. Those who don't, don't. There are exceptions, but that's mostly how I see it.

I would not be able to express it better.... with one little addition: marketing is the "main factor" also for industrial produced instruments
from time to time I'm wondering, why lots and lots of people don't use their ears for the getting the sound of an instrument but hearing to the "namedropping" of a few "experts."...

[Stevied63]

I posted this because I was curious about whether there are well known luthiers who became renowned before getting endorsed by a famous player. I have an Olson on order - he is obviously well known through Phil Keaggy and James Taylor (and others). But the price of an Olson reflects his renown (supply and demand). I'm thinking, if I commision another guitar, whether I will try to find a less widely known luthier who builds guitars that have great tonal qualities, but are not as well known. So it got me thinking about that path to greatness, and what yhat really means.

[Stevien]

This discussion belongs in the "general discussions" section, not in "custom guitars." It also will become very superficial.
Steve

[JamesO]

People will probably have more relevant experience to comment in this forum, and are also more likely to see it, so it seems like a proper location.

One thing that really helps someone build a reputation is exposure. Any method that lets someone experience a particular luthier's work short of having the guitar in hand is going to be a good way to gain it. The internet is great for this, whether through build threads here, through the use of video, social media, super fans and influencers, etc. When someone has a lot of exposure, they tend to gain notoriety. So if you see someone who has a lot of notoriety, they've at the very least had a lot of exposure some how.

Another reason you may see familiar names crop up over and over again is because the relationships luthiers build with each other. Relationships are such a storied part of this craft. When you see the same few names, it might not be because they're the only ones qualified, but they might be the guys the host knows or the guys who say yes.

IMO, calling someone's work mediocre isn't necessarily fair. A lot of luthiers do really good work, and we get accustomed to it. Some do incredible work. Really good work is still really good work.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by Stevied63

I'm interested in people's (especially luthiers) opinions on the path to being well known (in a good way). Whenever I see lists, or articles, that reference the "best" luthiers, there are a handful of names that bubble up. What I'm wondering is if those luthiers become well known by virtue of having a famous player either explicitly, or implicitly, endorse their guitars - or whether they become well known (and highly respected) because word gets out in the guitar community (I realize the two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive - one can precede the other) that these are special.

The reason I am curious is that, I see many small production luthier built guitars on this forum that look beautiful - fantastic build quality, top notch materials, and luthiers who deeply care about their craft. I can't attest personally to tonal qualities, but have to assume that, based on people's comments, the guitars sound wonderful (although this is highly subjective). However many of these luthiers aren't necessarily widely known, and written and talked about - and I'm curious if that path to widely known and respected has to go through a famous player endorsement, or can it happen just by word if mouth first (and a player endorsement comes later)? Are there (and I'm using this just as an example) Kim Walker quality (build and tonal quality) guitars being built out there, but because nobody famous has talked about their guitrs, they just aren't well known?

PS Perhaps I mean "path to "greatness"" l as opposed to path to well known.""

Originally Posted by Stevied63

I posted this because I was curious about whether there are well known luthiers who became renowned before getting endorsed by a famous player. I have an Olson on order - he is obviously well known through Phil Keaggy and James Taylor (and others). But the price of an Olson reflects his renown (supply and demand). I'm thinking, if I commision another guitar, whether I will try to find a less widely known luthier who builds guitars that have great tonal qualities, but are not as well known. So it got me thinking about that path to greatness, and what yhat really means.

You appear to define 'greatness' in terms of market price. I would have thought it is intrinsic to the work.

[runamuck]

My opinion is, with everything else being equal, (consistently making great instruments and being a competent marketer) it never hurts to have someone famous playing your guitars (James Taylor for James Olson) and it's to one's advantage to study under Ervin Somogyi.

And luck.