ToneDexter Thread

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by James May

It might work fine. The issue will be whether you can really get a sound from the mic that you like off that solid body. If so, ToneDexter will match it pretty closely.

Another approach, even crazier than a fox, would be to create a WaveMap on a real upright bass fitted with a piezo, and play your solid body through that WaveMap. We've done this in the lab and it can work better than we expected.

We are working on a bass version of the software now. It will be available for free download once ready, as will any future general code updates.

Wouldn't it be best to use the same exact model pickup for each instrument (the training instrument and the performance instrument) when trying to do this modeling thing? I presume that's what they're doing with the Aura IC.

Wouldn't both pickups (the training instrument pickup and the performing instrument pickup) need to be well-installed and tonally balanced (unless they were both poorly balanced in the same way)? In other words, a WaveMap created off an instrument with a well-balanced pickup wouldn't compensate for a tonally unbalanced pickup (excessive bass or treble) in the performing instrument.


To my mind, one of the great advantages of ToneDexter is that it can compensate for an unbalanced pickup. (There's a great many trebly USTs and excessively bassy SBTs out there that could use the help.) When one gets into modeling, I'd think that both pickups (for the modeled training instrument and the performance instrument) would need to be quite similar and well-balanced.

[James May]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Wouldn't it be best to use the same exact model pickup for each instrument (the training instrument and the performance instrument) when trying to do this modeling thing? I presume that's what they're doing with the Aura IC.

Wouldn't both pickups (the training instrument pickup and the performing instrument pickup) need to be well-installed and tonally balanced (unless they were both poorly balanced in the same way)? In other words, a WaveMap created off an instrument with a well-balanced pickup wouldn't compensate for a tonally unbalanced pickup (excessive bass or treble) in the performing instrument.


To my mind, one of the great advantages of ToneDexter is that it can compensate for an unbalanced pickup. (There's a great many trebly USTs and excessively bassy SBTs out there that could use the help.) When one gets into modeling, I'd think that both pickups (for the modeled training instrument and the performance instrument) would need to be quite similar and well-balanced.

Yes, all that you say is correct and will indeed give the best results. However, what we've discovered is that if the pickups are "similar enough", it seems there is more latitude in this mix and match approach than we first thought, and often yields results that are "good enough" (meaning far better than the pickup alone). You may need to EQ a bit after the fact, but the simple bass and treble seem to be enough. In part, this is because our training process is so solid. I also should add that it seems to work better with USTs where there is less of the instrument's sound in the signal to start with.

Just to be clear, we're not suggest people rely on this approach, only that it might be worth a try. If you train on your own instrument, you will surely get the best results, and that is our main focus.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by James May

Yes, all that you say is correct and will indeed give the best results. However, what we've discovered is that if the pickups are "similar enough", it seems there is more latitude in this mix and match approach than we first thought, and often yields results that are "good enough" (meaning far better than the pickup alone). You may need to EQ a bit after the fact, but the simple bass and treble seem to be enough. In part, this is because our training process is so solid. I also should add that it seems to work better with USTs where there is less of the instrument's sound in the signal to start with.

Just to be clear, we're not suggest people rely on this approach, only that it might be worth a try. If you train on your own instrument, you will surely get the best results, and that is our main focus.

I totally agree with James...

When I wrote about the litterature: In most case they use a robot to play the same things in both instruments during the training.

My personal feeling about UST is that if you put the same UST in a Yamaha or a Cort. You'd get nearly the same sound amplified.

Cuki

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

I totally agree with James...

When I wrote about the litterature: In most case they use a robot to play the same things in both instruments during the training.

My personal feeling about UST is that if you put the same UST in a Yamaha or a Cort. You'd get nearly the same sound amplified.

Cuki

I had a little 00 size Fishman Aura-equipped Cort at one time. Ironically, I thought it sounded much better when modeling a certain OM sound image (from the Aura Spectrum preamp) than it sounded when using one of its model-specific Aura sound images.

I don't necessarily agree that UST-equipped guitars will sound nearly the same when amplified. The larger guitars will usually have a longer note decay. I tend to agree with the conventional wisdom that smaller, dryer sounding guitars have less "personality" of their own and make better modeling platforms.


Oops, I've gotten off on a modeling tangent. I hope someone posts more ToneDexter samples soon.

[fiddle fever]

New to forum, so I want to say “hello”!! I recently got a TD and I wanted to chime in after a few days of use. Probably like many of us on this forum a quality acoustic tone is the never ending quest….so, when I first heard/read about TD, I was pumped!! I should add my current rig is a Collings OM (K&K) equipped going into a Boss tuner- Body Rez -Radial PZ into an AER. This rig is nice and has worked well, but the whole concept of the TD was too good to pass. So far (training with a AKG C1000s, which isn’t the best, but not the worst mic) working with the TD has been fun. I trained my Collings guitar and had some super nice results. I also had a shure SM57, with good results. I want to also add there’s a learning curve to your mic setup and the training process!! Here’s the interesting thing...I’ve trained my banjo, without good results. I tried placing the mic in different places (for example, further away from the banjo), without any sonic success. The banjo sounded bad when trained. So, I played the banjo through my guitar trained track and the banjo sounded big and full, maybe not a classic banjo sound but a pleasant tone (one could agrue that the banjo tone can’t get too pleasant!!). Next, I trained my fiddle (equipped with a LR Baggs pickup), sounded really nice!!! Funny thing is that when I played my banjo through my fiddle trained track...bam...it sounded more like a banjo (just louder). This is strange to me and I’m sure James may have thoughts on the reasons why this is so. As of now, I’m planning on keeping the TD. I want to A/B the results with my current rig. I’ve got a show tomorrow and I’m planning on using the TD. The TD is replacing the 3 pedals I mentioned above with the goal of a simple, good sounding setup.

[AeroUSA]

Originally Posted by fiddle fever

New to forum, so I want to say “hello”!! I recently got a TD and I wanted to chime in after a few days of use. Probably like many of us on this forum a quality acoustic tone is the never ending quest….so, when I first heard/read about TD, I was pumped!! I should add my current rig is a Collings OM (K&K) equipped going into a Boss tuner- Body Rez -Radial PZ into an AER. This rig is nice and has worked well, but the whole concept of the TD was too good to pass. So far (training with a AKG C1000s, which isn’t the best, but not the worst mic) working with the TD has been fun. I trained my Collings guitar and had some super nice results. I also had a shure SM57, with good results. I want to also add there’s a learning curve to your mic setup and the training process!! Here’s the interesting thing...I’ve trained my banjo, without good results. I tried placing the mic in different places (for example, further away from the banjo), without any sonic success. The banjo sounded bad when trained. So, I played the banjo through my guitar trained track and the banjo sounded big and full, maybe not a classic banjo sound but a pleasant tone (one could agrue that the banjo tone can’t get too pleasant!!). Next, I trained my fiddle (equipped with a LR Baggs pickup), sounded really nice!!! Funny thing is that when I played my banjo through my fiddle trained track...bam...it sounded more like a banjo (just louder). This is strange to me and I’m sure James may have thoughts on the reasons why this is so. As of now, I’m planning on keeping the TD. I want to A/B the results with my current rig. I’ve got a show tomorrow and I’m planning on using the TD. The TD is replacing the 3 pedals I mentioned above with the goal of a simple, good sounding setup.

Funny that you mention this. I found my Fishman guitar sounded bright with a K&K guitar map but boomy when done 'correctly'. However this is not how it's designed to be used and it lacked some bass. James told me to position the mic 1.5ft away from the nut and pointing at the soundhole. This worked great for my Fishman OM guitar and the balance between bypassed pickup and map was also better. Be sure to try this position as well as others.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by fiddle fever

New to forum, so I want to say “hello”!! I recently got a TD and I wanted to chime in after a few days of use. Probably like many of us on this forum a quality acoustic tone is the never ending quest….so, when I first heard/read about TD, I was pumped!! I should add my current rig is a Collings OM (K&K) equipped going into a Boss tuner- Body Rez -Radial PZ into an AER. This rig is nice and has worked well, but the whole concept of the TD was too good to pass. So far (training with a AKG C1000s, which isn’t the best, but not the worst mic) working with the TD has been fun. I trained my Collings guitar and had some super nice results. I also had a shure SM57, with good results. I want to also add there’s a learning curve to your mic setup and the training process!! Here’s the interesting thing...I’ve trained my banjo, without good results. I tried placing the mic in different places (for example, further away from the banjo), without any sonic success. The banjo sounded bad when trained. So, I played the banjo through my guitar trained track and the banjo sounded big and full, maybe not a classic banjo sound but a pleasant tone (one could agrue that the banjo tone can’t get too pleasant!!). Next, I trained my fiddle (equipped with a LR Baggs pickup), sounded really nice!!! Funny thing is that when I played my banjo through my fiddle trained track...bam...it sounded more like a banjo (just louder). This is strange to me and I’m sure James may have thoughts on the reasons why this is so. As of now, I’m planning on keeping the TD. I want to A/B the results with my current rig. I’ve got a show tomorrow and I’m planning on using the TD. The TD is replacing the 3 pedals I mentioned above with the goal of a simple, good sounding setup.

Thanks for joining the party, fiddle fever. Your input is most interesting. The mixing and matching of WaveMaps with instruments (for pleasing results) appears to be an extra added bonus which few of us were expecting. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the conventional wisdom is that dryer instruments with a quicker note decay tend to make better modeling platforms. That description certainly fits the banjo.

[James May]

Originally Posted by fiddle fever

...
Here’s the interesting thing...I’ve trained my banjo, without good results. I tried placing the mic in different places (for example, further away from the banjo), without any sonic success. The banjo sounded bad when trained. So, I played the banjo through my guitar trained track and the banjo sounded big and full, maybe not a classic banjo sound but a pleasant tone (one could agrue that the banjo tone can’t get too pleasant!!). ...

I'm curious: what pickup do you have in the banjo, and is it open back or closed back?

[fiddle fever]

Originally Posted by James May

I'm curious: what pickup do you have in the banjo, and is it open back or closed back?

Hi James..I play a closed back, old RB100 (brass tone ring). I placed the C1000 mic in different location. I had a thought of taking the resonator off and miking the back (my setup years ago..I would tape a 57 to the coordinator rods). The pickup I'm using is a Schatten BJ-02. That's my banjo, let me know if you have any tips/insights. What's so interesting about the TD is the concept of the preamp is complex but its application is pretty straight and fun! I wish I thought of it!!

[James May]

Originally Posted by fiddle fever

Hi James..I play a closed back, old RB100 (brass tone ring). I placed the C1000 mic in different location. I had a thought of taking the resonator off and miking the back (my setup years ago..I would tape a 57 to the coordinator rods). The pickup I'm using is a Schatten BJ-02. That's my banjo, let me know if you have any tips/insights. What's so interesting about the TD is the concept of the preamp is complex but its application is pretty straight and fun! I wish I thought of it!!

That pickup should be fine. I would encourage more experimentation with mic positions and/or different mics.

[midwinter]

A few examples. All my gear is in my truck and it's raining/snowing, so I didn't record the tracks at the same time. Some folks asked for ToneDexter strumming. I did that and a mandolin. All recordings are straight into the interface. No EQ or effects on anything.

Strumming. KM184 first, then TD. Wasn't particularly picky about mic placement (about 16" back aimed at the 14thish fret). There's a boxiness to the TD that isn't present with the mando, which makes me think placement is going to make a pretty significant difference.



Mandolin. KM184 first, then TD. I'm pretty happy with this sound.



I trained my banjo, but I'm not happy with the result and need to fiddle with mic placement. The same is true for the guitar; I'm going to have to take some time to figure out what placement/mic works best.

Pickups in everything are JJBs.

[fiddle fever]

Originally Posted by midwinter

A few examples. All my gear is in my truck and it's raining/snowing, so I didn't record the tracks at the same time. Some folks asked for ToneDexter strumming. I did that and a mandolin. All recordings are straight into the interface. No EQ or effects on anything.

Strumming. KM184 first, then TD. Wasn't particularly picky about mic placement (about 16" back aimed at the 14thish fret). There's a boxiness to the TD that isn't present with the mando, which makes me think placement is going to make a pretty significant difference.



Mandolin. KM184 first, then TD. I'm pretty happy with this sound.



I trained my banjo, but I'm not happy with the result and need to fiddle with mic placement. The same is true for the guitar; I'm going to have to take some time to figure out what placement/mic works best.

Pickups in everything are JJBs.

Midwinter, I agree with you regarding figuring out what placement/mic works best, which is why I'm questioning if I should take the TD out for my gig tomorrow night-it's still new to me. There's a learning curve to this piece of equipment and I respect that!

James, I will continue to experiment with the banjo setup. Like I stated, I got a nice trained tone with the banjo, just through a different instruments trained track, which I never thought would be an option!!

[midwinter]

I've got a gig tomorrow night, as well, but it's local. I'm going to bring my old pedalboard (which is only partly raided to make the TD work for me) and see what happens at soundcheck. I can always go back to my tried and true behemoth of a pedalboard.

How'd you place the mic to get your banjo sound? What I'm struggling with is placing the mic so that there's a kind of presence/airy-ness to the wavemap.

[fiddle fever]

Originally Posted by midwinter

I've got a gig tomorrow night, as well, but it's local. I'm going to bring my old pedalboard (which is only partly raided to make the TD work for me) and see what happens at soundcheck. I can always go back to my tried and true behemoth of a pedalboard.

How'd you place the mic to get your banjo sound? What I'm struggling with is placing the mic so that there's a kind of presence/airy-ness to the wavemap.

I will do the same with my old pedalboard...good idea!! I didn't have any luck yet with the banjo mic placement. I googled some different banjo mic approaches. I tried placing the mic 10" away from neck to rim joint...no luck. I tried placing the mic with same projection just further back, I tried up to a few feet away. The banjo WaveMap is too tinny and thin. So, strange when I played through my fiddle WaveMap it sounded fuller and when I played through my guitar WaveMap it had more bass...even more fuller sounding.

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by fiddle fever

I will do the same with my old pedalboard...good idea!! I didn't have any luck yet with the banjo mic placement. I googled some different banjo mic approaches. I tried placing the mic 10" away from neck to rim joint...no luck. I tried placing the mic with same projection just further back, I tried up to a few feet away. The banjo WaveMap is too tinny and thin. So, strange when I played through my fiddle WaveMap it sounded fuller and when I played through my guitar WaveMap it had more bass...even more fuller sounding.

Mine was super-tinny, at first, too, so I re-did it. This is the one I got earlier today. My shoulder is injured, so playing the banjo is pretty uncomfortable (and this is a plectrum with a long scale).

KM184 about 16" off the neck joint.