Martin Guitars - Select Hardwoods?

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by PastorSteve

I own (like many here) high-end guitars with 5 or more piece necks. When playing a guitar I don't know, or care, how many pieces of wood were claped together to make the neck.

As long as it's a great maker, with a great warranty, I know it will last. If you close your eyes you don't know how many joints, wings or zippers there are on your neck. After all, it's all about tone and playability isn't it?

this is very true but, while rare, it wouldn't be the first time that an otherwise reputable company made a mistake. i think it pays to keep an eye open at all times. generally, though, i agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.

[Raine]

Does anyone have any pictures of wings, on any guitar, especially Martin, that I can see. I realize it will be difficult to photograph so that they can be seen clearly, but maybe someone can help.

Raine

P.S. When I said I would prefer an all mahogany solid neck, I was thinking about resale value as well as tonality and overall appearance. Need more info about these wings!

[George W. Kerry]

[rmyAddison]

Most wings are a better match than that example but yes it conserves wood to make the rough-cut headstock no wider than the rest of the neck. Wings are added, stained to match as best as possible, and Martin gets more necks out of a piece of wood. Most Martin guitars have solid wood headplates on the top so you only see wings from the back.

To some Martin purists wings are a deal breaker, I have some wings and some solid necks, and while I prefer a solid neck my ears are more important than my eyes. I would have bought my HD-28V if it had a zipper on the back and glowed in the dark!

[Freeman]

Originally Posted by Raine

Does anyone have any pictures of wings, on any guitar, especially Martin, that I can see. I realize it will be difficult to photograph so that they can be seen clearly, but maybe someone can help.

Raine

P.S. When I said I would prefer an all mahogany solid neck, I was thinking about resale value as well as tonality and overall appearance. Need more info about these wings!

Wings, as well as select hardwood and a lot of related stuff has been discussed in great detail at UMGF. Since those tend to be the real Martin-heads (I know a few hang here but most are over there) it might make sense to lurk (and ask) those folks. Also since they can discuss price and value a lot more freely you will maybe get better opinions on the affect on resale.

Depending on the headstock venier you will maybe see the glue lines on the back but the venier will cover it on the front. Does it weaken the headstock, I think the opinion is not - after all tops and backs are both joined and there is a lot more gluing surface on the headstock. Obviously it would be a really bad idea on a slothead, but probably OK on a paddle.

FWIW - I happen to think of wings like I do the scarf joint/finger joint - no big deal for the good it does saving wood. I have been building lately using one piece Martin style necks, but I think my next ones will be scarfed.

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Folkstrum

There were some threads-not terribly long, or enduring here-about African mahogany soon becoming the "new Brazilian"-and put on the CITES list. Hence, "true mahogany" B/S and necks getting really pricey. Does anyone have any concrete links or CITES info that this is, indeed, happening or about to? Just curious.

You are a bit confused. The phrase 'African mahogany' is a made up term to market several different kinds of hardwoods that come from different parts of Africa and that look and sound kind of like real mahogany. For example 'African mahogany' has been used as a marketing name for both sapele and khaya, among other things. None of these African species are running short.

What is running close to being commericially logged out is real mahogany which only grows in Central America, northern South America, and parts of the Caribbean. Real mahogany has a botanical name that begins with the word Swietenia. There are three species of Swietenia (real mahogany) and all of them are listed on CITES Appendix II now. The meaning of being listed on one of the three CITES Appendices is:

The Appendix I includes species threatened with extinction that are or may be affected by trade. Trade in Appendix-I specimens may only take place in exceptional circumstances.

Appendix II includes species that are not presently threatened with extinction, but may become so if their trade is not regulated. It also includes species that need to be regulated so that trade in certain other Appendix-I or -II species may be effectively controlled; these species are most commonly listed due to their similarity of appearance to other related CITES species.

Appendix III includes species listed by a range country to obtain international cooperation in controlling trade.

By being listed on Appendix II it means that you have to have special written permission from both exporting and importing countries' CITES organizations for each log you ship and this is the status of all three species of real mahogany.

Here is a listing of the tree species that are CITES listed, by Appendix. Of note are all three species of mahogany (look for Swietenia in Appendix II) and Brazilian rosewood (look for Dalbergia nigra in Appendix I).

You might also find it interesting to see Spanish cedar listed in Appendix III (look for Cedrela odorata). This simply means that one or more countries where it grows have unilaterally added it as being threatened in their own country rather than it being threatened in all of the countries where it grows.

CITES TREE SPECIES LISTINGS

[Raine]

Thanks George.....for the excellent hi-def picture of the headstock w/ wings. If I have my choice, I'd rather have a Martin w/o wings. Not saying anything bad about the overall sound of the guitar, just that I can be counted as one of the Martin purists who will accept nothing less than perfection from my guitars. This means appearance as well as sound. I been to auctions where belt buckle scratches can and often do affect the sale price of a Martin. I can only assume that "wings" would have the same effect.

Raine

[jwsamuel]

Originally Posted by Freeman

"select hardwood" is Spanish cedar and is being used on more Martins as mahogany is becoming scarcer.

Select hardwood is not Spanish cedar. Select hardwood means Martin can use mahogany, Spanish cedar or other wood, depending on what is available at the time without amending the specifications each time they change.

Jim

[jwsamuel]

Originally Posted by Folkstrum

There are any number of Martin purists who simply will not accept it. Period.

Whether they accept it or not has no bearing on the truth.

Jim

[jwsamuel]

Originally Posted by Freeman

Wings, as well as select hardwood and a lot of related stuff has been discussed in great detail at UMGF. Since those tend to be the real Martin-heads (I know a few hang here but most are over there) it might make sense to lurk (and ask) those folks.

If you really want to stir things up, go over to UMGF and post a message about wings and select hardwood! Then sit back and watch the sparks fly.

Jim

[Freeman]

Originally Posted by jwsamuel

Select hardwood is not Spanish cedar. Select hardwood means Martin can use mahogany, Spanish cedar or other wood, depending on what is available at the time without amending the specifications each time they change.

Jim

That is true, however at this point in time Martin is only using mahogany or Spanish cedar - here is the quote from the UMGF FAQ that I cited

"The term “Select Hardwood” simply allows Martin to choose the neck wood based upon what is available at the time. Right now Martin is currently using Spanish Cedar and Mahogany as the two choices for neck wood."

The door is certainly open to change those specs as needed.

It was interesting that when I went to their spec sheet for a plain old D-18 it gives the neck materials as "selected hardwood", but for a D-18A they very proudly say "NECK MATERIAL: Genuine Mahogany"

[George Henry]

I've got a Breedlove with a hard rock maple neck (one piece). It doesn't unbalance the guitar, is incredibly stable, and feels very stiff. I have a friend with a custom bubinga 00 Martin with a maple neck. I certainly don't consider these necks inferior to genuine mahogany. I would think they would be more durable and perhaps superior sonically. We all know that maple is used exclusively in the violin family and among fine archtops.