Help me shop please!

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

Help you shop??? That's a dangerous statement. But I do the same thing. There are many people here who have had their hands on 100's, even 1000's of guitars. So the pool of experience is vast.

You didn't mention what tone you were looking for. You like your 810 and also mentioned you liked the CA GX. Both of those give a full tone. The GX is between Taylor GA & GS in size (16.125 lower bout). It's also a hair (1/8) deeper then your 810. Some say the pre-Peavey CA's have a wide neck, I'm not sure if the one you played is pre or post Peavey. I know they now offer 1 3/4 & 1 11/16 necks now.

Based on the tone you are accustomed to, I would avoid smaller bodied guitars. You may find they are lacking since you are so used to bigger bass. So CA GX or GXi (GXi only available used), Rainsong WS, Jumbo or Dread and maybe the Emerald X20. I'm confused by the X20. It's lower bout is only 15 1/4 but then it's 4 3/4 deep. People say it has a lot of bass for it's size. I doubt it rivals a Dread, but several 814 owners love their X20.

Then of course there's issues of cutaway, electronics, etc. Both Rainsong and CA do the barn door thing. You can special order Rainsongs without electronics for a reduced price. They also started offering non-barn door electronics but ONLY on their newest Concert Hybrid line (I asked). However finding a Dread (no cutaway) with no electronics isn't that hard.

If you don't mind a short scale 12 fret, the Rainsong WC Concert Hybrid can be ordered with no electronics and with a case for $1349. I suspect street price may be lower. They are 5 inches deep at the endpin though, just something to consider. http://www.rainsong.com/concert-hybrid/chws.html

These replies are great; thank you all!

It's totally true, I like big sound. That was true before I got into fingerstyle, and it's more true now that fingerstyle is what I primarily do. I use the fleshy tips of my fingers and my technique is very soft and delicate so the bigger sounding guitar really helps.

I had a Taylor 210, which I liked until I got my 810. After that I had to ditch the 210 on account of the 11/16 nut and its "thin" tone. Because everybody raves about Taylor GA bodies, I bought one - and ditched it because I really preferred the depth of the 810.

The only times I've ever plugged in any of my acoustics was to see if the electronics worked and to see how it sounded plugged in. I don't perform and I have no need for electronics...

The Rainsong hybrid WS or Dred with no electronics look pretty enticing.

[Acousticado]

Likely, Ted@LAGuitars, a forum sponsor and dealer for pretty-much all the composite guitar builders except Emerald, will chime-in when he sees this thread and offer you sage advice as your needs and wants have emerged from your posts.

[jdinco]

I find the 12 fret guitars much more comfortable to play (bad left wrist) so prefer them a lot. You really should try one before buying. And you can't beat the Emeralds for body to body comfort and tone. I own a Rainsong WS and an Emerald X20, the RS gets little to no play. I like the RS, but....

[Carbonius]

Although I mentioned a Rainsong WS Concert Hybrid, I would only go that way if you like 12 fret guitars. I like their tone when it's just me (not in a group), but I can't play them. I need a 14 fret cutaway for what I do.

There's also the tonal change. 12 fret guitars sound warmer and maybe sweeter, but that's not always good. If you play with other people a lot, it may get buried rather than cutting through. Rainsong doesn't even make a short scale Dread or Jumbo. I suspect because people go big to get a big full tone. Personally I would like a 25.75" bass and a 25" treble fan fret. Richer bass, fatter treble with almost no playing adjustment required. Emerald would do it, but that's too expensive for me... for now

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

.... I like big sound. That was true before I got into fingerstyle, and it's more true now that fingerstyle is what I primarily do. I use the fleshy tips of my fingers and my technique is very soft and delicate so the bigger sounding guitar really helps. The Rainsong hybrid WS or Dred with no electronics look pretty enticing.....

Everything you are saying points strongly toward the Hybrid WS (emphasis added). The Dreadnought would work too, but I think the tone of the WS is just a bit more focused and balanced by that tighter waist and slightly lower internal volume -- less bass heavy. Plus that sculpted waist sits more securely on the leg than a dread.

Ted can guide you on what can and cannot be ordered from Rainsong. I vaguely recall that they will do 14 frets on certain models, but "stock" is 12 frets. Or maybe I have that backwards....

I started off years ago playing soft fingerstyle with bare fingers. That playing style led me to the Martin J-40 jumbo to get more power with a soft touch. Over time I started using natural nails and plucking harder (not nearly as "shy" as I once was) and don't really need such raw horsepower any more.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Methos1979

Two that pop into my mind that meet your criteria is the Emerald X20 and the Rainsong Shorty. Both have a body size approximately the same as your typical 000/OM and...

To clarify, the Rainsong OM is similar in size to the Taylor Grand Concert (GC) while the Emerald x20 is much bigger, about the size of the Taylor Grand Auditorium (GA), so about the same size and feel as the CA GX the OP tried, and the Rainsong WS models.

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

So the Rainsong concert hybrid looks interesting, but it seems they're all (or mostly) 12 fret guitars?

This may be a better question for the gen-pop of AGF, but...

I'm not opposed to 12 fret, and have played a couple, but not enough to have formed much opinion myself: What are your opinions on switching back and forth between 14 and 12? Do you find that if you're really used to a 14 that it is unnatural to pick up and play well on a 12? Does the muscle memory of frethand position translate to the 12 guitar?

Hi Hodgdon, welcome the cf section.

Regarding 12-fret vs 14-fret as it relates to Rainsong, you can definitely ask in General abut the differences, but you should limit the conversation to Taylor, because Rainsong approaches 12-fret design exactly the same way, in that unlike Martin who uses a totally different body with totally different voicing for 12-fret models, Rainsong and Taylor 12-fret models use standard body shapes with a different neck. To do this the bridge is positioned closer to the center of the soundboard, which many luthiers consider the "sweet spot" so you not only and up with a guitar that feels more intimate, but that is a bit more responsive, with a rounder, warmer voice.

Rainsongs new CH models start at $1299 MAP, and go up to $1600 depending on electronics, so they are an amazing value, especially from a US builder. Given your size criteria, either the OM (Taylor GC size), or WS(Taylor GA size) models should work for you. Rainsong has several hundred SKU's using a combination of three different materials, and five different body sizes, and all are available in 12, or 14-fret versions, so there are lots of options.

Composite Acoustics is also large US builder, they use only one type of carbon fiber, with four different body shapes, including the GX Grand auditorium you tried.

Besides the two larger builders, we have Blackbird, a company that is all about tone. They build ukuleles, travel guitars, as well as 0, 00, OM, and Jumbo size guitars in carbon fiber, and Ekoa which produces a tone that is as close to a high end wood guitar as you can get, without buying a high end wood guitar.

We also carry Journey, a brand made in China by and American business man who lives there, and while currently thy specialize in travel guitars, their RT660 is about the size of the Taylor GS Mini, which is close to a grand concert size. The RT 660 uses a fully contoured back, a Manser Wedge design body, and has a built in arm bevel so it feels as small a 3/4 size travel guitar, but the voice is anything but small. It maybe a bit too small for what you're looking for, but worth a look.

As with wood guitars, there are tonal options galore. Rainsongs tend to favor the Taylor voice, CA voicing leans towards Martin, although with less clarity, Blackbird went to high end boutique brands like Collings and Lowden for tonal inspiration, while others are quite content to let the carbon voice come through.

As you can see, there are some great options. BTW, if you wanted to stay close to the feel, and tone of your Taylor 810, than look no further than the Rainsong H-DR1100N2, which is right at your target price point, or the CO-DR1100N2 which will run you about $500 or so more. Both of these models are also available in OM, and WS models.

I'll leave you with this for now, but feel free to reach out to me with any questions.

[HodgdonExtreme]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

BTW, if you wanted to stay close to the feel, and tone of your Taylor 810, than look no further than the Rainsong H-DR1100N2, which is right at your target price point, or the CO-DR1100N2 which will run you about $500 or so more. Both of these models are also available in OM, and WS models.

I'll leave you with this for now, but feel free to reach out to me with any questions.

Thank you for the detailed response!

I do like the idea of a very similar feel to my Taylor, though I'm totally ok with a different voicing. What's the fun in having two guitars that sound just the same!?

The WS and DR from rainsong seem like they'd be a great fit. Couple questions (aimed at anybody/everybody):

How does the tone compare between a rainsong hybrid vs. concert? In watching several youtube videos they sound very similar, but I haven't heard both played by the same guitarist in the same room with the same mic, so it's really hard to judge!

Is/was the concert available without the barndoor preamp? I see the hybrid is, and considering I've no need for electronics, really prefer my guitars not to have them - especially the barndoor style!

Is refretting a rainsong problematic? I know it'll be a long time before it needs it, but if/when it comes down to it - is it the typical $250-$350 (nickel) $350-$500 (stainless) affair?

EDIT TO ADD: I actually found this video before seeing it posted on Rainsongs sight. Beautiful!!

[jonfields45]

I have an H-DR1100N2 and a recent CH-PA. I had the same concern about moving to a 12 fret neck for some of my playing, but the cut-away seems to make it work just fine for me. Last week I gigged in a huge (arts center) lobby and for some reason looked down at my guitar at one point that night and in confusion stopped playing a lead for a few bars as the 12 fret neck had me momentarily lost. But I still plan on playing out with the CH-PA for the foreseeable future. The little CH-PA is more comfortable for a long night standing with a guitar on a strap. BTW, it is not a quiet guitar and competes well in projection with the larger dreadnought. I do like the dreadnought's tone better.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

Thank you for the detailed response!

I do like the idea of a very similar feel to my Taylor, though I'm totally ok with a different voicing. What's the fun in having two guitars that sound just the same!?

The WS and DR from rainsong seem like they'd be a great fit. Couple questions (aimed at anybody/everybody):

How does the tone compare between a rainsong hybrid vs. concert? In watching several youtube videos they sound very similar, but I haven't heard both played by the same guitarist in the same room with the same mic, so it's really hard to judge!

Is/was the concert available without the barndoor preamp? I see the hybrid is, and considering I've no need for electronics, really prefer my guitars not to have them - especially the barndoor style!

Is refretting a rainsong problematic? I know it'll be a long time before it needs it, but if/when it comes down to it - is it the typical $250-$350 (nickel) $350-$500 (stainless) affair?

My pleasure. As to your other questions, all Rainsongs are available without electronics, and they are no more complicated to refret than your Taylor.

As to tone, the Hybrid models which mix glass and carbon will have a more mellow tone, with added mid range that brings them closer to wood, tonally. The Concert Series are 100% carbon fiber so less woody tonally, but they do have more projection and clarity. The back and sides are traditional cross weave CF, while the soundboard is a thinner, Unidirectional Carbon Fiber that adds response, as well as warmth. You also get the sexy Abalone rosette and shark fret markers. The Concert Series was what sold me on becoming a Rainsong dealer about a decade ago, they are amazing, but many CF newbies prefer the tone of the Hybrid series.

[121]

I gathered this info from the manufactures websites,
hopefully it helps comparing size.

[Acousticado]

HE, the detail you're getting is quite comprehensive toward making an informed decision. Just to add, if at some point an Emerald piques your interest, they are the only builder that will match a neck profile to your liking, whether like a Taylor, or if something more custom, they will send you what you need to mold the profile for their fabrication. Of course, this comes at a cost, but it's a nice option for those who can afford it and where it matters for hand comfort.

[MiG50]

I just picked up a Rainsong CH-WS1000NS, and it's pretty amazing. Considering the price point (it's sitting at exactly $1500 street) I don't think there is any other carbon fiber guitar with as much bang-for-the-buck. If you're married to the idea of a bigger-sounding guitar, the WS is a great balance of size, tone, and playability with cutaway. But if you wanted to get something a little smaller for travel purposes, the CH-PA1000NS is a little more affordable, has a more compact (parlor) body for stowing away, and plays just as well. You lose a little volume and bass response, but compared to traditional wooden parlors, it's still a tone monster.

[Song]

https://reverb.com/marketplace/acous...ce%7Casc&page=

[Captain Jim]

Welcome aboard, HE. A lot of us came here for recon, discovered the carbon fiber "tone" and have expanded our guitar options.

I was a pretty dedicated Taylor guy, still own 4. You asked about 12 fret models: a Taylor 522ce 12-fret and a RainSong Shorty. I have had absolutely no problem going back and forth between a 12-fret and the 14-fret models. The two 12-frets I have are both 24.875" scale, 1.75" nut width. Your 810 (nice guitar) has a 25.5" scale and a 1.75" nut width.

In the last few years, I have determined carbon fiber simply works for me - great tone, no issues with humidity changes, and did I mention: great tone.

If you are looking for a big guitar sound, but still want an amazingly comfortable playing experience, check out the Emerald X20. The Opus model comes in right at your budget, delivered to your door from Ireland. Another $175 adds a LR Baggs Element Active VTC pickup installed.

My first Emerald is an X7 - a much smaller guitar that what you are looking for, but the most comfortable acoustic guitar I have ever played. It made it easy for me to buy an X20... bigger (between a Taylor GC and a GA), bigger sounding than my Taylor 814, and the second most comfortable acoustic guitar I have played.

You mentioned the offset soundhole - it is a design feature that can easily be designed in with a carbon fiber build, along with a beveled arm rest, rounded edges, an ergonomic shaped back, and a sexy curved cutaway. Yeah, I'm describing the X20 with all that. The offset soundhole gives the same sound to the player that those in front experience. When I go back to my traditional soundhole guitars, they sound more muffled to me. You have to experience that X20 with the soundhole opening up and out to appreciate what it does for the playing experience.

If a solid black Opus model Emerald isn't "flashy enough" for you, you can move up to an Artisan model and get a variety of different colors, or an exotic wood veneer that gives you a very unique look.

But, "pretty" doesn't cut it if the guitar can't produce the sound - and the X20 puts out a lot of sound with great tone.

For over 40 years, I was a "have to play it before I can buy it" kinda guy. The last decade or so, I have expanded my options and have had all good experiences with buying on-line or by phone from a reputable dealer. Ted at LA Guitar Sales has more experience than any other dealer I am aware of with carbon fiber guitar sales.

If you decide to go with an Emerald, you are dealing with the people who make your guitar. Excellent customer service and communication; the option for customization that other CF manufacturers don't offer. The Opus models are often available immediately or with a short build time; custom guitars take longer. On that first X7 I ordered, they had it in stock... 4 days from Ireland to south Texas! (potentially a record )

So, from a former confirmed wood guitar guy with very strong Taylor leanings, I offer this last thought: If I had to go with only one guitar, it would be the X20 Select Series I own... versatile, rich-sounding, SO comfortable, and striking looks. Some of the CF manufacturers are making guitars that align with traditional wood designs (other than the material), Emerald is designing guitars with players in mind and expanding the playing experience.

Jim

[Methos1979]

Jim - you're KILLING me with all the talk about the Emeralds! I'm still waiting on the first of the two customs I've got coming!!

To the OP - I have no personal experience with them but for tone and volume another consideration is the Kevin Michael Sable by McPhereson guitars. Although those would nearly double your price range.

Another opinion on 12 vs. 14 fret - the Rainsong Shorty I had was a 12 fret neck on a 14 fret type body with a cutaway so it really seemed to have the best of both worlds. Extreme comfort and an intimate feel ergonomically but with the tone, volume and fret access of a guitar more like a 000.