why so inexpensive?

[Blunote]

So veering a bit from the OP, which of the lower cost nylon string guitars are good?

There are many weeks when I play so much my fingers get really sore. A nylon stung guitar might be a nice respite from steel strings.

[sirwhale]

Originally Posted by dosland

This is about what I'd have said. I'd add that there are A LOT of really really nice Spanish-made guitars in the $1000-$3000 range, but as zhunter has said, it's not easy to get your hands on a bunch of them all at once to try them out (in the US, at least). Also, the all-solid Taylor and Martin guitars that you've mentioned (steel-string) cost that much because of the label in the soundhole and the logo on the headstock. Those same brands make nylon-string guitars at close to the same price-point for all solid woods. They're not traditional "classical" guitars, but they're very nice to play and they have that brand name recognition.

I think that, as zhunter has also suggested here, the lack of market penetration (and brand recognition) has probably contributed to keeping prices relatively low for student/studio-grade classical guitars made in small factory environments.

Fazool, have you mainly been looking at crossovers (as this is your stated interest)? If so, then expensive crossovers are hard to find, but crossovers in general are easy to find in your market. If you are looking for expensive Spanish guitars, then you have to look in specific places.

I recently went from steel to nylon myself (well to carbon specifically). I had a crossover for a couple of months, I loved it, and knew that my steel string days were over. I looked into other crossovers and posted on here quite a bit about it. Living in Spain, I was able to try some locally (Alhambra and Camps), and also bought, but sent back the Cordoba C10 crossover and C9 cedar crossover. I liked the C9 cedar the most and for the price, it is a good guitar. But in the end the Cordobas all had structural problems, so were sent back. I knew this was the way I wanted to go, so I wanted to get a really good crossover, but just couldn't find one. And it seemed the only way to get a really good quality one, would be to have it built for me.

Finally I went back to Casa Luthier (top Spanish guitar shop here in Spain), and tried the Alhambra crossovers again, but I just didn't like them. I felt that I'd got to the end of the line with this search, so I asked if they had any flamenco guitars I could try (Flamenco because of the low action more than anything, and a snappier sound). He had remembered me from when I'd bought the Camps Crossover, and he replied "What you want is a top sounding guitar isn't it?" He walked off and came back with a Camps Primera (Cypress back and sides), which sells here for about 1300euros. My wife and I were blown away by the difference in the quality of the tone and projection compared to all the crossovers we had been trying. The Alhambra crossover model was similarly priced, and the C10 crossover isn't far off either. I asked to try other models and eventually ended up with my Camps Primera Negra A (rosewood back and sides - 1800 euros). I just think that the flamenco/classical guitar world has so much more than the crossover world, which is a relatively new area.

I ended up selling the crossover shortly after. It was a transition for me so I'm not upset about the money lost, but I do recognize that if I'd picked up the flamenco guitars in the first place to try, then I would have probably liked it straight away. Camps is a brand known for its very comfortable and thin neck though (there's no way I'd touch those other beefier neck guitars). The problem was that I was so wound up thinking that I needed a crossover because I'd learnt everything on a steel string, and I also thumb wrap (I can still thumb wrap the 6th string on my flamenco guitar).

I know that you have said that you are more interested in crossovers, so ignore what I've said if it doesn't apply to you. It's just that you may be in a similar position to the one that I was in a few months ago. Now I absolutely love the 52mm nut, love the bridge spacing, love the space and love the flat fretboard. Love my guitar and have zero GAS. All other guitars sold and gone. I would recommend you try some flamencas.

[creamburmese]

I would echo the last poster - the crossover nylon guitars (and nylon guitars built by steel string makers) are built like steel string guitars - they are too heavily built to really allow the nylon strings to cause the top to resonate like a true classical. If you are going to play nylon I would stick with classicals - they sound soooo much better. As many posters have said, the guitars you find in the "acoustic" guitar shops are all student guitars, of which most people seem to think the Cordobas are the best value. If you want to try a better range you need to go to a classical guitar shop...

[Mr. Scott]

And on top of what everyone has said already, I think you'll find that a concert classical will outprice almost any steelstring you care to mention, factory or luthier built.

[SprintBob]

Fazool,

I just went through a similar experience in purchasing my first nylon string guitar. 99% of the local shops only carried nylon string guitars in the price range from around $150 to $700. To my ear, none of these guitars presented a tone that I cared for and I think they were slow movers because the majority had pretty sad looking strings on them. I looked off and on for about 18 months.

I started looking at videos of classical and crossover nylon string guitars in the $1,000 - $2,000 range and they all sounded pretty good but I could not get my hands on anything to play. So I did a lot of asking on the AGF forums and got good feedback that narrowed it down to a couple of models primarily from Cordoba and Taylor. Like you, I was not looking to play classical music solely but wanted to have a the nylon voicing in my collection. I was pointed to the Cordoba GK Studio Pro's, there are two models, both have cutaways, and both have onboard Fishman electronics. Both had European spruce tops and one had a cypress b/s and the other had EIR b/s. I chose the rosewood model. I was impressed with some of the videos of the Taylor models (especially the latest 700 series nylon crossovers) but I did not want to spend that much money. I also had a 30 day period from Sweetwater to try the guitar at home and if I did not like it I could send it back (and they offered to cover all shipping). So there was little risk in moving forward.

I've had it for a month and after a string change, I'm pretty happy with it. It is significantly better in tone than any of the cheaper nylon string guitars I tried at the local stores. I've come to the conclusion, that you really need to expect to spend at least a grand to get into something decent and that is from the perspective that you have some nice guitars in your collection so I am sure you want whatever nylon string guitar you end up with to "punch in that weight class".

Hope this helps, good luck.

[frankhond]

Professional classical players generally get their guitars custom built for them at way higher prices than the average high end steel string. The stuff in the shops is for beginners, dabblers, crossovers or students.

[Mickey_C]

There are great mid-level guitars made in Paracho Mexico. They are a big jump up from those cheapies and rival many of the $3,000 and up instruments.

You just need to know where to shop from. You might want to have a look at Casa Montalvo signatures, and Cervantes PE models.

And there is no way I would buy any Cordoba over a concert or signature Cervantes, or Francisco Navarro (all Paracho, Mexico made guitars)FWIW.

There is simply no comparison.

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by Mickey_C

And there is no way I would buy any Cordoba over a concert or signature Cervantes, FWIW. There is simply no comparison.

As far as I could tell, Cervantes does not really offer anything in the $800 - $1,600 price range so Cordoba is IME a good option. Cervantes might be a better option for someone upgrading from a mid-level Cordoba which could be me in a couple of years. I found in my research a lot of Cordoba lovers especially in terms of bang for the buck. Also, for someone wanting the crossover nylon, is Cordoba or Taylor the better fit?

[Mickey_C]

Originally Posted by SprintBob

As far as I could tell, Cervantes does not really offer anything in the $800 - $1,600 price range so Cordoba is IME a good option. Cervantes might be a better option for someone upgrading from a mid-level Cordoba which could be me in a couple of years. I found in my research a lot of Cordoba lovers especially in terms of bang for the buck. Also, for someone wanting the crossover nylon, is Cordoba or Taylor the better fit?

Cervantes offers the PE models, and the Casa Montalvo are smack in that price range.

My Casa Montalvo was right in the middle of that price range (sorry giving prices is not allowed on this forum). It's a cocbolo Hauser, Sr. model. There is no cordoba that holds a candle to it.

For a crossover the Cordoba makes a good one. Cervantes makes a better one. I don't think CM makes one at all.

Paracho Mexico is where it's at right now, for bang for buck.

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by Mickey_C

Cervantes offers the PE models, and the Casa Montalvo are smack in that price range.

My Casa Montalvo was right in the middle of that price range (sorry giving prices is not allowed on this forum). It's a cocbolo Hauser, Sr. model. There is no cordoba that holds a candle to it.

For a crossover the Cordoba makes a good one. Cervantes makes a better one. I don't think CM makes one at all.

Paracho Mexico is where it's at right now, for bang for buck.

Maybe I did not check the right sources but the prices on the PE models I saw were about 25%-40% more than what I paid for my Cordoba. I bet you could find a good deal on a used Cervantes also. Wish I could have had the opportunity to try one but I don't live in an area where any store stocks the nice stuff. Good info.

[Mickey_C]

Search reverb and see what the return policy is. I've given up on finding decent classicals locally - there just aren't enough stores to carry them. Most of what they have is the Cordoba stuff.

I wish I could post links and prices but it's not allowed. That being said, a search is easy to do.

If you already found a guitar, don't worry about it - just enjoy it!

[zhunter]

There are world class builders in Paracho. Just be aware that Paracho is a guitar factory town and, much like Valencia Spain, the level of instruments coming from there varies. Folks like Castillo and Navarro are pretty well recognized builders and their guitars are available in the States. There are others but I haven't really been in that market for several years and can't offer other current info.

I like Camps too and, while primarily a factory, they are a small factory and they build a high quality factory flamenco instrument with individual oversight on the mid and up models. Bought my blanca Primera at Casa Luthier too.

hunter

[mtdmind]

Originally Posted by Mickey_C

There are great mid-level guitars made in Paracho Mexico. They are a big jump up from those cheapies and rival many of the $3,000 and up instruments.

You just need to know where to shop from. You might want to have a look at Casa Montalvo signatures, and Cervantes PE models.

And there is no way I would buy any Cordoba over a concert or signature Cervantes, or Francisco Navarro (all Paracho, Mexico made guitars)FWIW.

There is simply no comparison.

I have been in Paracho. Nice place to visit. Was fun checking out the charming guitar shops, but most of the instruments are not professional level IMO.Even the best of them lacked volume. I think they lack good materials and tools there. I would buy a Cordoba over any of them.

[zavaletas]

You pretty much get what you pay for. Most of the "inexpensive" guitars are entry level student guitars, made by factories. The materials at best are so=so, the workmanship may be OK, but if you are looking for quality... you need to look for a guitar that is handmade, by an individual luthier, who uses primo woods, machines etc and takes the time to optimize each piece of wood. Such guitars will begin at about $3000 and go on up from their. The top models made by luthiers with international reputations, (i.e. makers who build guitars used by top players), may easily cost $20,000 to $30,000. Are they worth this kind of money... well, to some degree it is a game of diminishing returns-- as one pays more and more, each tiny but appreciable difference in quality costs more and more.

James Greenberg / owner Zavaletas La Casa de Guitarras

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by Dogsnax

I beg to differ, Dave....there are some incredibly well made guitars coming out of China's these days. I've owned some very high end luthier-made classicals in the 5K+ range, i.e., Eric Salin, Kenny Hill, Robert Garcia and my little Hill New World Player 650mm plays and sounds right up there with the best. Made in China.

I agree. My zeal for the Cordoba brand is no secret around here. But over the past couple of years I've had the opportunity to play a few $2-4K handmade flamencos (with the notion of buying if I fell in love), and I didn't fall in love. My stable of Chinese-made Cordobas remain my favorite nylon strung instruments... over the Spanish, American, and Japanese nylons that I've owned or played. But I will say that I have no experience with instruments over $5K. Knowing what I know about diminishing returns in instruments though, I suspect that the curve flattens as one spends more money. The largest gains in improvement generally come between $1K and $2K for guitars period (and I've owned and played hundreds of acoustics and electrics over the years). If one finds great deals on used instruments, one can adjust that range to between $500 and $1,500.