Savvy sound guys - help me with my next step up??

[roylor4]

So, I have been using a Samson XP308i (300 watt pa - a copy of the old Yamaha Stagepas 300) for our larger gigs. Yes, I said larger gigs. It's limitations are becoming more and more obvious.

I need educating and suggestions on my next (& probably last) step up in a sound system.

For context, my wife and I aren't just acoustic players - we play electric too but through dedicated amps and will likely stay that way. I'm a big believer in keeping things light and simple. Some sets are all acoustic and others are all electric. In the electric setting, the PA is only for vocals - in acoustic it carries the load.

I'm thinking of starting with a single powered speaker and a good mixer and will add another speaker later on. I would prefer to perform without the need for a monitor.

I'll go with a tried and proven brand for the mixer like a Soundcraft, Yamaha and don't need help there.

Given the wattage of our current system, we are probably only hitting around 100-105db (maybe).

If I go with a single speaker, it will likely be a Yamaha DBR10. They sound great, have an excellent rep and outstanding warranty. I know I will lose sound dispersion with this solution though. I am also considering a Turbosound IP300 because it is essentially a mini line array with 120 degrees of dispersion.

I know people really like the Bose L1C - but it seems under powered (on paper anyway) and over my ideal budget to start (prefer under 1k).

We want something scaleable.

I would appreciate input from steady giggers especially. Please, no $2-3K recommendations, we can't swing it.

[BottledAwesome]

Well...it sounds like you basically know what you want to do and are looking for agreement. Why not just do what you want to do?

I would steer you away from the iP300 if you plan to actually "upgrade" from your Samson expressly for the purpose of larger gigs. It's hard to say exactly with the Samson, but I know that the wattage on the iP300 is listed at peak...so plan on 150 watts RMS.

I use the iP1000 for an acoustic duo and for my solo stuff. I would consider that to be the minimum if you plan to do vocals and instruments at the same time. It is still slim enough to be out of the way when you use it, can go behind you and be a monitor without being a separate unit, and is otherwise very easy to use and set up.

For the mixer, since you mentioned Soundcraft...consider the MTK series, which will allow you to capture multitrack recordings of your gigs. You wouldn't be able to record your electric amps unless you piped them in as well, but it would be a cinch for your acoustic gigs.

[necrome]

I think many will recommend the QSC K8.2 or CP8 for powered options. Those sound good, are reasonably priced and can go loud. You can get the bigger ones if you need to push even more air

The new JBL Eon One Compact seems like a good battery-powered and portable option and they come with built-in digital mixers. Not sure how large your crowds get though!

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by BottledAwesome

Well...it sounds like you basically know what you want to do and are looking for agreement. Why not just do what you want to do?

I would steer you away from the iP300 if you plan to actually "upgrade" from your Samson expressly for the purpose of larger gigs. It's hard to say exactly with the Samson, but I know that the wattage on the iP300 is listed at peak...so plan on 150 watts RMS.

I use the iP1000 for an acoustic duo and for my solo stuff. I would consider that to be the minimum if you plan to do vocals and instruments at the same time. It is still slim enough to be out of the way when you use it, can go behind you and be a monitor without being a separate unit, and is otherwise very easy to use and set up.

For the mixer, since you mentioned Soundcraft...consider the MTK series, which will allow you to capture multitrack recordings of your gigs. You wouldn't be able to record your electric amps unless you piped them in as well, but it would be a cinch for your acoustic gigs.

No, not sure about anything except generalities. Not trying to argue with you either, but the ip300 actually has the same max volume output than the ip1000 at 122 db's at a much lower price. Also, lists wider coverage at 180 degrees per Sweetwater specs. Of course, what things look like on paper don't always feel the same in real life. They get great reviews too, thus my interest.

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by necrome

I think many will recommend the QSC K8.2 or CP8 for powered options. Those sound good, are reasonably priced and can go loud. You can get the bigger ones if you need to push even more air

The new JBL Eon One Compact seems like a good battery-powered and portable option and they come with built-in digital mixers. Not sure how large your crowds get though!

I honestly prefer the form factor of the QSC CP8 and have considered it, but I think the DBR has more volume and headroom. I know the K8 is supposed to be a beast too, but certainly not cheap.

As for crowd size, mostly from a handful up to about 150 people, but the norm is in the middle. We tend to specialize in smaller venues where big bands are either to expensive for the owner or just plain too big/too loud.

Thanks for the input guys - any and all appreciated.

[BottledAwesome]

Originally Posted by roylor4

No, not sure about anything except generalities. Not trying to argue with you either, but the ip300 actually has the same max volume output than the ip1000 at 122 db's at a much lower price. Also, lists wider coverage at 180 degrees per Sweetwater specs. Of course, what things look like on paper don't always feel the same in real life. They get great reviews too, thus my interest.

May be max SPL, but it definitely won't sound the same at that max. The wattage and driver configuration differences make sure of that. With the 300, you've got 4 2" mid/high drivers and a pair of 6.5" woofers. The 1000 has a tweeter at the top, 8 2.5" mid drivers, and a pair of 8" woofers.

As for dispersion, their nominal characteristics are listed in Turbosound's tech specs as being identical: 120 degrees at the -6dB points. Given the angling of the 300's mid drivers (which the 1000 does not have), you will probably get a more even response in some areas of the midrange at more extreme angles.

Even at that, if the plan was to get to 122dB (or near to it) on a regular basis, there are lots of places I'd be looking other than the Turbosound iNSPIRE series.

I don't doubt that the iP300 gets great reviews, and in some circumstances I would use one in a heartbeat. I'm just not sure it will be much of an upgrade from your current setup based on needing more volume on tap for bigger gigs. You want that volume to be accompanied by authority in your sound, otherwise it just gets shrill and ragged.

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by BottledAwesome

May be max SPL, but it definitely won't sound the same at that max. The wattage and driver configuration differences make sure of that. With the 300, you've got 4 2" mid/high drivers and a pair of 6.5" woofers. The 1000 has a tweeter at the top, 8 2.5" mid drivers, and a pair of 8" woofers.

As for dispersion, their nominal characteristics are listed in Turbosound's tech specs as being identical: 120 degrees at the -6dB points. Given the angling of the 300's mid drivers (which the 1000 does not have), you will probably get a more even response in some areas of the midrange at more extreme angles.

Even at that, if the plan was to get to 122dB (or near to it) on a regular basis, there are lots of places I'd be looking other than the Turbosound iNSPIRE series.

I don't doubt that the iP300 gets great reviews, and in some circumstances I would use one in a heartbeat. I'm just not sure it will be much of an upgrade from your current setup based on needing more volume on tap for bigger gigs. You want that volume to be accompanied by authority in your sound, otherwise it just gets shrill and ragged.

How large are the gigs that you use the IP1000 for? What's your setup when you need more HP? Genuinely curious and ready to learn.

[jonfields45]

You have a good plan IMO.

[BottledAwesome]

Oh man, they vary a lot. Three recent-ish use cases where I appreciated either its dispersion, power, or both, were a pair of weddings and a backyard party.

Wedding #1) Indoors, ~100 in attendance, spread out over a large area with round dining tables. Providing music first as a soloist for the ceremony, and then as a duo for the reception. Just acoustic and vox x 2.

Wedding #2) Outdoors, ~80 in attendance, again pretty spread out. Provided music as a duo for the "prelude" segment as well as the ceremony. Acoustic, vox x 2, and a digital kick drum (Roland SPD::ONE Kick)

Backyard party, ~65 in attendance, with a really nice but challenging layout. We were playing in a nice gazebo, but the "audience" was everywhere including sometimes behind us. Acoustic, vox x 2 and the kick again.

In all cases, we got comments about the impressive reach and clarity of the system. The beefy-ish low end was nice to have with the kick, as it didn't feel like it was cluttering the mix with a lot of "beater" noise. I also like to have it there for the acoustic since I tend to play quite percussively, and I need those thumps and bumps to translate.

My understanding with this system is that it COULD, in dedicated performance environment, provide ample reinforcement for say 150-200 people. It's when the environment becomes LESS than ideal that the audience you can realistically serve with quality audio gets smaller.

[roylor4]

Thanks BA, that was useful info.

[obijohn]

I see nothing wrong with your plan. The Bose S1 gets a lot of love. I chose to use an L1C for solo and duo work, my partner has one also. When we work the full band, we use EV ZLX-12s. I have a Soundcraft Signature 12mtk board that works great with both the EV's and one or both of the L1C's.

[buzzardwhiskey]

My suggestions are perhaps unconventional...

FOH = Behringer B108D (costs $180, weights 14lbs, better sound than any "all-in-one amp" up to about $1000)
Monitor = Behringer B205D (costs $200, weights 7bs, sits atop a mic stand)
Mixer = Soundcraft EPM6 cost ($250)

For about $630 you're golden.

[J Patrick]

...excellent plan...I see no reason to alter it....and yes I am in fact a savvy sound guy...

[midwinter]

Without a sense of how many inputs you need, it sounds like your plan is probably good.

I know they're expensive, but the QSC K8s are really amazing for acoustic acts. You can get them used on Ebay for $450 (I own three and never paid more than $500). Add the mixer of your choice and you're good. I play large spaces with a pair + a sub and small places with just one.

Additionally, while I'm loathe to recommend anything Behringer, we have the Xair 16 and have been very happy with it. If you rack it with a power strip like this, you basically have snake and power all in one. Works great. Just don't set your beer on it.

[YamahaGuy]

Yamaha MG10XU and a DXR10 got me through the summer of outdoor gigs at a campground. I used the Bose L1C a few times and while it does throw the sound uniformly, it simply cannot offer the same spl as the DXR10.

Good luck with your scalable purchase. If you can find an old stock DXR10, it's a little punchier than the DBR and with the series II being released you may find a good deal on a gen 1 DXR.

I have a pair of MSR400 (predecessor to the DBR) that crank. A bit heavy, but Yamaha powered speakers have yet to let me down...