Regretting changes to my Tanglewood TW28 - did I do the wrong thing

[iceinbangkok]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

A cedar top should have a nice warm tone. .11s are obviously lighter than .12s, so less tension, and less energy transmission, so should be quieter.

You have plenty of exposed saddle, so that's apparently not the problem. It sounds like your luthier lowered your saddle to reduce only the treble strings' action, so it doesn't seem even the action change is to blame, as he left the bass strings alone(?). I can't see a nut affecting sound, nor should fret-leveling have adversely affected sound.

Most swear by bone saddles, but I've heard others express concern that natural bone is inferior because it naturally contains density differences, relative to a manufactured product like nubone or another hard plastic designed for guitar nuts/saddles, that make for inconsistent sound. True? Or cork-sniffing first-world concern? Who knows.

In your place, my course would be to have the luthier cut a new saddle and restore the original overall action (bass and treble) - you can always lower it gradually once you've spent some time with a well-setup guitar. For now, I'd stay with the .12s, UNLESS your Tanglewood came with .11s as new - then I'd use those. That's the best I've got.

Hi - so in going to the store with my guitar and comparing to one with the old set up (nubone nut/saddle, higher action and D'Addario strings) I saw that after the changes mine had become brighter, glassier and lower volume than before. It lost the warmth and character of the original set up. The store clerk played them both and agreed with me about the change and also pointed out the action, nut and strings as the key differences. The new set up isn't bad, just quite different.

Rather than have a new nut and saddle cut I believe the easiest and least costly option is to have the luthier restore the old nut and saddle - which he said he would do. And with changing the strings should be back to normal. Will update when reverse is complete.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by iceinbangkok

Hi - so in going to the store with my guitar and comparing to one with the old set up (nubone nut/saddle, higher action and D'Addario strings) I saw that after the changes mine had become brighter, glassier and lower volume than before. It lost the warmth and character of the original set up. The store clerk played them both and agreed with me about the change and also pointed out the action, nut and strings as the key differences. The new set up isn't bad, just quite different.

Rather than have a new nut and saddle cut I believe the easiest and least costly option is to have the luthier restore the old nut and saddle - which he said he would do. And with changing the strings should be back to normal. Will update when reverse is complete.

Good plan - I'm looking forward to the update.

[merlin666]

This was a missed opportunity for the OP to work on the guitar and try to set it up himself. Cheap guitars like this are best used for experimenting and developing repair and maintenance skills. I use the Luthier for my expensive guitars and things l can't do myself.

[iceinbangkok]

Originally Posted by merlin666

This was a missed opportunity for the OP to work on the guitar and try to set it up himself. Cheap guitars like this are best used for experimenting and developing repair and maintenance skills. I use the Luthier for my expensive guitars and things l can't do myself.

Hi Merlin - I am not so handy and when I saw how big a difference to the sound can be made, I had no intention to work on it myself. This whole thing came from wanting a professional set up done - I got upsold on bone nut/saddle and things slid quickly downhill. At this stage I would just like to get it back to what it was, with a good set up, and take the lessons learned. I found out I do like the guitar and also the difference that can be had with strings- and I won't rush into changing nut/saddle to bone again. Cheers

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by iceinbangkok

one more thing I am bothered by is that I still have buzzing on chord changes which is something I thought a set up might improve.

"buzzing on chord changes" seems as if it would be a technique issue rather than a setup issue.

[iceinbangkok]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

"buzzing on chord changes" seems as if it would be a technique issue rather than a setup issue.

Hi Frank- when I took the guitar to the store the guy noticed that the washer between the tuner and the headstock on the E string (low) was loose and rattling. It sounded like it was the frets. We think that will make a difference when it is tightened up. No idea how that happened.

[frankmcr]

Originally Posted by iceinbangkok

Hi Frank- when I took the guitar to the store the guy noticed that the washer between the tuner and the headstock on the E string (low) was loose and rattling. It sounded like it was the frets. We think that will make a difference when it is tightened up. No idea how that happened.

Ah, OK. I was thinking the kind of "buzzing" that happens when moving from chord to chord & the fingers aren't applying quite even enough pressure when the new chord is strummed.

The TW28 seems to have gotten some pretty favorable reviews over all.

[iceinbangkok]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Good plan - I'm looking forward to the update.

So I met the luthier today and changed out the saddle. He said the new nut was only slightly lower than the original. He said what really stood out for him was that the action of the original set up was higher on the treble side than the bass. And so that he had not only lowered the action overall he had particularly lowered it on the treble side. He said that he thought that was more normal than the way the guitar was set up originally. I thought that was interesting and could well have caused the major change that I noticed. Michael Sanden is the luthier who designed the series (Evolution) and works with Tanglewood. He probably had a reason for setting it up this way. When I strum now it rings out and I like the vibrancy and mix of warmth and twang. So it seems to be "back". I feel it wasn't necessarily the bone v the nubone, although I don't feel now the nubone is an inferior option if it suits the guitar. I could test that by having a none saddle made in same shape as the original - but no way am I going to do that now :-). I did keep the new bone nut because I wouldn't mind slightly lower action at that end. The luthier said that the overall action is medium to medium-high. He said I might experience soreness in my left hand but I am not worried about that now after the experience I had and might even change out the nut next time I change strings just to see (action and sound). The really good thing is that I have realized I really like my guitar and am happy to be back with the old sound. I plan to enjoy it for a while now and just play. Thanks for all the feedback and input.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by iceinbangkok

So I met the luthier today and changed out the saddle. He said the new nut was only slightly lower than the original. He said what really stood out for him was that the action of the original set up was higher on the treble side than the bass. And so that he had not only lowered the action overall he had particularly lowered it on the treble side. He said that he thought that was more normal than the way the guitar was set up originally. I thought that was interesting and could well have caused the major change that I noticed. Michael Sanden is the luthier who designed the series (Evolution) and works with Tanglewood. He probably had a reason for setting it up this way. When I strum now it rings out and I like the vibrancy and mix of warmth and twang. So it seems to be "back". I feel it wasn't necessarily the bone v the nubone, although I don't feel now the nubone is an inferior option if it suits the guitar. I could test that by having a none saddle made in same shape as the original - but no way am I going to do that now :-). I did keep the new bone nut because I wouldn't mind slightly lower action at that end. The luthier said that the overall action is medium to medium-high. He said I might experience soreness in my left hand but I am not worried about that now after the experience I had and might even change out the nut next time I change strings just to see (action and sound). The really good thing is that I have realized I really like my guitar and am happy to be back with the old sound. I plan to enjoy it for a while now and just play. Thanks for all the feedback and input.

Thanks for the comprehensive update. I don't have an explanation for what occurred, but want to reiterate I believe you bought a fair amount of education on a number of fronts (eg mechanics and sonics) for relatively small money. Good value, overall, imo, and the knowledge will prove its worth if you decide to purchase/commission a more expensive guitar. Enjoy the ride and keep your eyes open for other things in need of "fixing."

[iceinbangkok]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Thanks for the comprehensive update. I don't have an explanation for what occurred, but want to reiterate I believe you bought a fair amount of education on a number of fronts (eg mechanics and sonics) for relatively small money. Good value, overall, imo, and the knowledge will prove its worth if you decide to purchase/commission a more expensive guitar. Enjoy the ride and keep your eyes open for other things in need of "fixing."

Thanks Chris. Everyone's comments actually helped me put it in perspective. I have played a bit over a long time, but never spent anytime or money thinking about the guitars themselves (before the TW28 I have had a second-hand Greco acoustic since 1996 which I bought in Hokkaido for 60 bucks). There was a point over the weekend where I was going to ditch the Tanglewood guitar and start again. But I learnt a lot also about what you can do with pick gauge and strings as well. Should have been intuitive but anyway. As a result I am now using a heavier pick and enjoying the results of that. Appreciate the forum and enjoying my guitar again. Cheers

[Penrith Pete]

Hi there.

Glad you got your guitar tone back! I have found I liked the tone of a bone over plastic / Tusq saddle in about half the guitars I have owned and made the change to.
Others, including several Furch-built guitars, a Breedlove and a Tanglewood sounded too thin and 'hi-fi' with bone and going back to Nu-bone or Tusq.
One guitar, an LL6 sounded better with its original plastic compared to either bone or Tusq - TO MY EAR.

There are guitars where it makes little difference and some where it makes a massive difference. I am convinced of that.

i think these Tanglewoods TW28 series are pretty good guitars in both spruce and cedar tops. I am pleased for you that you are enjoying it again.

Pete

[iceinbangkok]

Hi Pete- thanks for your commemts and sorry for late reply as I missed it when you wrote. "Thin and hifi" is how it sounded. I've been undecided about whether the big change in action or the bone saddle/nut was more, less or equally to blame. Your experience does suggest the bone saddle impacted this Tanglewood tw28. I do like the guitar - what is your experience with them? Cheers