Archtop newbie with questions

[hesson11]

Short version: For playing an archtop plugged in only, would light-gauge electric strings (i.e., 10–46) be an acceptable way to go with something like an Eastman AR403/405 or a Godin 5th Avenue?

Background: I’m a longtime dyed-in-the-wool acoustic player with some fairly serious hand problems. I play mostly Celtic-type fingerstyle. Playing electric guitars has become so much easier for me that I’m interested in exploring possibilities. I recently bought an Epiphone Les Paul, and it is an absolute godsend for my hands. But I don’t like its heavy weight, its body shape/size or its 1-11/16 nut width.

So I’m thinking of a relatively affordable archtop like an Eastman or a Godin for its (presumably?) lighter weight, more acoustic-like configuration and its wider nut width. But I notice most archtops specify something like 12-gauge strings—which would be the same as the strings on my acoustics, which along with a typically higher required action, gives me problems.

So I guess what I’m asking is whether the super-easy action of a typical solid-body electric (i.e., Les Paul) would be appropriate for an archtop, provided I wouldn’t need the volume or projection of playing it unplugged.

Also, if you have any ideas for especially lightweight archtops that might meet my needs, I’d appreciate hearing about them.

Thanks very much,
-Bob

[Steve DeRosa]

Greetings from another former Acoustic Guitar mag forum member...

Speaking as the owner of both acoustic and electric versions of the Godin, I'd recommend them without reservation. First off, if you're familiar with the "slim" 1.72" neck used on some Seagull S6 models as well as the Entourage Rustics, it's the same deal on the 5th Avenues - FWIW I'm a lifelong slim-neck player (1-5/8" is my ideal width), and while the Godins are at the upper end of my comfort zone I find them quite easy to negotiate (I'll assume you'll probably like them for just the opposite reason); in addition they've got a flat-D profile that reminds me, other than width, of a Ramirez classical - something the latest series of Epiphones tried (and failed miserably) to copy (I own an Ultra 339 so I speak from experience here), and which you'll undoubtedly appreciate as a fingerstylist. You're also not likely to find a lighter-weight hollowbody electric; my CW II weighs in at just a hair over five pounds - about as much as a typical AJ/MJ/Dread - and I've seen single-PU Kingpins in the mid-fours. Finally, if you have no right-hand issues you'd be surprised at just how low you can set the action, especially with flatwound strings - there's a reason those postwar jazz cats could burn like they did. BTW, as a 50+ year archtop player I'd advise going with the heaviest string you/your guitar can handle if you want to get some "wood" into your tone - considering you're dealing with a 24-13/16" scale the tension is going to be significantly less than with an instrument in the mid-25" range; mine's set up with flatwound 13's (the acoustic's got PB 14's) and it's the easiest-playing electric in my entire stable - good news is that it never needed to be set up, and in my book that's a testament to quality...

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Got your message about the thread and IMO 10's will work just fine with the Eastman AR403/405 models. In fact, although the specs on Eastman site say 12's, our AR403 and 405 came from Eastman strung with 11's.

[hesson11]

Hi Steve! There are quite a few of us still around! Thanks so much for the info. I've had a couple of Godin acoustics, and I do like those necks. Sounds like you're quite happy with yours.

Ted, thanks so much. I appreciate the information.
-Bob

[Hot Vibrato]

10's will work fine - except it will sound lame. Archtops always sound best with heavier strings and an aggressive attack. Those with a delicate touch are much better off playing a flat top acoustic or an electric guitar.

If you're used to 12's on your acoustic, then you'll do fine with 12's on an archtop. I'm not sure why you assume that an archtop has to be set higher than a flat top, but I think you're mistaken on that point. Archtops sound bad if the action is too low, but so do flat tops. I think the threshold is about the same on both. Just set it where it feels comfortable.

FWIW, an Eastman is a much better sounding acoustic archtop than a Godin. I don't even think the Godin has a spruce top, so you're not going to get the sound you want from that guitar. IMO Eastman makes the least expensive archtops that actually sound decent. There's tons of less expensive ones on the market, but they don't sound like real archtops.

[hesson11]

Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato

10's will work fine - except it will sound lame. Archtops always sound best with heavier strings and an aggressive attack. Those with a delicate touch are much better off playing a flat top acoustic or an electric guitar.

If you're used to 12's on your acoustic, then you'll do fine with 12's on an archtop. I'm not sure why you assume that an archtop has to be set higher than a flat top, but I think you're mistaken on that point. Archtops sound bad if the action is too low, but so do flat tops. I think the threshold is about the same on both. Just set it where it feels comfortable.

FWIW, an Eastman is a much better sounding acoustic archtop than a Godin. I don't even think the Godin has a spruce top, so you're not going to get the sound you want from that guitar. IMO Eastman makes the least expensive archtops that actually sound decent. There's tons of less expensive ones on the market, but they don't sound like real archtops.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts, HV.

I do play with a delicate touch, but as I implied, am finding acoustics more and more difficult to play, while most electrics have narrower nuts than I perfer and weight/shape ergonomics that I find difficult to deal with.

I didn't mean to imply that archtops require higher action than flat tops; my meaning was that acoustic guitars generally require higher action than electrics.

To restate, my ideal would be to find SOME kind of guitar that has the ease of playability of my Les Paul (with its delightful .10 - .46 strings!) but with a wider nut width, lower weight and more acoustic-like shape. (In fact, I don't "do fine with 12s," unfortunately!) Just thought an archtop might be a possibility.

BTW, do your comments about archtops sounding "lousy" with lighter-gauge strings apply to the plugged-in sound, unplugged or both? Again, thanks so much.
-Bob

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato

...FWIW, an Eastman is a much better sounding acoustic archtop than a Godin. I don't even think the Godin has a spruce top, so you're not going to get the sound you want from that guitar...

If you check the OP, the models Bob lists are all-laminated instruments with built-in pickups - which, unless you're talking about an early-50's 17" ES-150, takes most of the idea of "acoustic" sound out of the equation. That said, given his stated stylistic preferences I'd be looking at something with a more lively, airy tone than a typical instrument of this type provides; if you're doing Celtic fingerstyle the one thing you don't need is the low-midrange punch and weight associated with most laminated electric jazzboxes - not to mention the couple extra pounds of added physical weight (a major consideration for the OP). Were he interested in playing unplugged - and his post makes it clear he's not - I'd recommend the all-solid/all-carved Eastmans (or a Loar LH-600/700) in a heartbeat; speaking as one who owns both, had he not mentioned any options I would have suggested either the Godin CW II or a Gretsch hollowbody of some kind (probably one of the recent 5400 Series models) - IMO far better suited to his stated purposes...

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by hesson11

BTW, do your comments about archtops sounding "lousy" with lighter-gauge strings apply to the plugged-in sound, unplugged or both? Again, thanks so much.
-Bob

Hi Bob,

My comment about archtops sounding lame with light strings definitely applies to the unplugged sound of an acoustic archtop, but I guess I was thinking about what makes for a good sounding jazz box, and I do feel that even plugged in, you need heavier strings to get that kind of sound, but for other styles, maybe not so much.

As Steve pointed out in the above post, I didn't think about my answer as much as I should have before I responded. I was just sort of shooting off my (virtual) mouth. When reading your post, I glossed over the part about your hand problems and now I feel like I came off like an opinionated jerk.

I think that given your situation, finding the guitar with the most comfortable neck should be your priority. You should be able to get away with lower, electric guitar type action on any hollowbody or semi-hollow body archtop, and as long as you don't dig in any harder than you would on your electric guitar, it should sound fine.

I'm deviating somewhat OT here, but your situation reminded me of something - I do guitar repair, maintenance, and restoration, and one of my customers brought me a flat top acoustic to set up that was designed to be played with 10 gauge strings, and it sounded fantastic. My recollection is that it was not a terribly expensive guitar, and it seems like the perfect guitar for an acoustic player with hand problems. I just can't remember the brand name at the moment, but if you're interested I can try to find out.

[hesson11]

Thanks again, Hot. No need for an apology for your first post; I found valuable information in it. You're right, my first priority is my hands and getting something that's almost stupidly easy to play. My Les Paul works, but as I mentioned, it's not ideal for me.

Funny thing about your final paragraph: In fact, my flattops (both short-scale, 12-fret 00 sizes) are currently set up with Elixir acoustic .10s, and they sound wonderful, but playability is still not quite as good as the Les Paul (probably too much to ask). In fact, I've been thinking of experimenting with electric-guitar .10s, as are on the Les Paul. Hey, I can always take them off.

Thanks again, Steve. I appreciate your comments.
-Bob

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Hot Vibrato

10's will work fine - except it will sound lame. Archtops always sound best with heavier strings and an aggressive attack. Those with a delicate touch are much better off playing a flat top acoustic or an electric guitar.

Is.

Completely untrue, if plugging in.

And you can get the action very low.

I recommend a wound G, for better intonation with a standard archtop bridge. If you go "tune o matic" it doesn't matter.

Godin's archtop family are great budget minded archtops. Go for it.

[hesson11]

Thanks very much, Jeff. More good info.

You know, just thinking out loud, what would please me no end would be a 12-fret electric. Never seen one, but for my hand problems, my 12-fret acoustics have the effect of bringing the nut closer to my body, thus reducing my reach and the attendant angle I have to bend my wrist at in the first position. Dream away!

-Bob

[Steve DeRosa]

My CW II is surprisingly compact for a traditional 16" archtop - definitely feels smaller (and it's unquestionably far lighter) than an ES-175 or any of its derivatives - and I doubt you'd have any trouble in spite of the 14-fret neck; tone is lighter too, with a healthy helping of Gretsch sparkle (FWIW Gretsch used to build many of their full-hollows with similarly thin woods - I've got a '64 Double Annie that's around the same weight - and many aficionados believe that's the real secret to their characteristic tone) - should work well for your intended use...

[hesson11]

Thanks again, Steve. Good stuff.
-Bob

[hesson11]

Hi Steve,
I'm hesitant to ask for a small favor, but if you have a chance (and an accurate way to measure), could you maybe measure the string spacing of the Godin at the nut (center E to center e, either in mm or inches)?

I do best with a true 1.75" but it is the actual spacing that really matters. If you're able to, I'd appreciate it. THANKS!
-Bob

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by hesson11

Thanks a lot for your thoughts, HV.

I do play with a delicate touch, but as I implied, am finding acoustics more and more difficult to play, while most electrics have narrower nuts than I perfer and weight/shape ergonomics that I find difficult to deal with.

I didn't mean to imply that archtops require higher action than flat tops; my meaning was that acoustic guitars generally require higher action than electrics.

To restate, my ideal would be to find SOME kind of guitar that has the ease of playability of my Les Paul (with its delightful .10 - .46 strings!) but with a wider nut width, lower weight and more acoustic-like shape. (In fact, I don't "do fine with 12s," unfortunately!) Just thought an archtop might be a possibility.

BTW, do your comments about archtops sounding "lousy" with lighter-gauge strings apply to the plugged-in sound, unplugged or both? Again, thanks so much.
-Bob

You might consider a crossover... here's my website crossover guitar page:

http://www.bluestemstrings.com/pageGuitarCrossover.html