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  #61  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:05 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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Originally Posted by Paikon View Post
yeah but still opinions
I wish everyone would keep their opinions to themselves.
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  #62  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:14 AM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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Given your strong music background (presumably including good sight reading skills on piano), I'm curious why you did not tend to use standard notation when you were learning guitar?
On the piano, there is one location per note. On the guitar, there can be several. Also, playing pop songs I knew exactly how it was supposed to sound -- I only needed to be told where to place my fingers and used standard notation for rhythm whenever necessary.


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Originally Posted by wcap View Post
I suspect I know the answer - that tablature shows you how to play a piece in a way that standard notation does not (though I guess classical guitar scores do include some fingering information?). It is a bit like having an experienced player sit down with you to coach you with the fingerings.
Exactly.


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I suspect that another reason why you used tablature might have been that unless you want to play classical guitar standard notation tends to not be available for guitar (though better modern tablature software normally gives you both).
Yes but it's a bit the other way around. I never felt the need for standard notation since I don't play classical guitar.


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Anyway, as a guitar and banjo player who learned mostly from tablature (and I am always frustrated by my limitations due to never sitting down and learning to sight read from standard notation), I'm interested in your perspectives on this. And I'm curious whether you also play guitar from standard notation on guitar.
I honestly don't think I am missing out on anything. The only way to become a really good classical guitarist is to start at a very young age and take formal lessons. That was already out of question for me by the time I started at age 13 or 14.

In the perspective of everything else, of course I can tell you what notes I'm playing -- but I see no point in writing it in a way that is incomplete and inefficient for my needs. Standard + tab provide the best combo IMHO.

Being able to read standard notation is an important skill -- a very important one.

But forcing someone to become really proficient at it on the guitar is silly when there's other tools that provide so much clarity -- and potentially the opportunity to learn much faster.
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  #63  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:15 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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If you can figure out everything by ear, you are not trying a piece that's challenging enough for you. That's IF you want to improve.
I've recently spent a lot of time transcribing Rev Gary Davis's stuff using "Transcribe" to slow things down. I wouldn't have a hope in hell of playing a lot of it up to speed at first but that's what I'm spending my practice time doing at the moment. Occasionally I'm tempted to buy the Stefan Grossman books but I like the challenge of doing it myself (as long as I really like the tune).

I find even in the simpler stuff, there are loads of quirks that can be picked up from players only through careful listening and working things out. A tab can be a good guide sometimes, but the listening bit is ten times more vital. Sometimes perhaps starting out with the tab for a skeleton guide and then putting it away can work out pretty good.
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  #64  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:16 AM
MICHAEL MYERS MICHAEL MYERS is offline
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But forcing someone to become really proficient at it on the guitar is silly when there's other tools that provide so much clarity -- and potentially the opportunity to learn much faster.
I agree 100%.
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  #65  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:21 AM
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Wasn't it Tommy Emmanual who said something to the effect that before you start modifying / changing the tune, you need to learn it note for note and "as written" first? So that your changes are the really *intended* ones...
Hi Odie...

My personal opinion and choice in teaching is song based and note-for-note-rote as a first step. I find note-for-note-rote without paper a good first step.

And it's based in tradition. Gypsy Jazz as a European tradition had no written music (TAB or Scores). There was often a 4th player in a Gypsy Jazz trio who was the apprentice guitarist sitting in and learning from the established player.

So when I teach the process used with my students for the past 35 years is:
  • Rote memorization of a song (No notation or TAB, video cameras are encouraged)
  • Now the song is yours…do whatever you want to it. Transpose, modulate, change the tempo or style. Play it for me your new way in 6 weeks.
  • Now let's take your version and arrange it as a duo…we'll build a duet part

I find this encourages better learning, more musical playing, less regret over a single note or two out of place, learning to play well with others, and students learn to stylize pieces and do simple arranging on their own.


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  #66  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:21 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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Originally Posted by wcap View Post

I suspect I know the answer - that tablature shows you how to play a piece in a way that standard notation does not (though I guess classical guitar scores do include some fingering information?).

lol.... what? is anaybody here plays from standard notation?
or people just have an idea what standard notation is?
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  #67  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:25 AM
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lol.... what? is there anaybody here who plays from standard notation?
or people just have an idea what standard notation is?
Hi Paikon...

I'm assuming you are not demeaning the players here. There are many of us who can (and some who do) use standard notation.

We most certainly can read, and if you drop in on any of the theory discussions you'll see there is a solid understanding of music, reading, playing, sight reading, and theory.

I can read from notation. I don't. The things I want to play are not notated, and for the most part no TAB either.

My greatest need for notation is spontaneously cranking out a short part for a keyboardist or sax player in a rehearsal.

And at this point in my 48 year musical journey, it's quicker to skip all that and just figure things out using one's ears and hands.

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  #68  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Paikon View Post
lol.... what? is there anaybody here who plays from standard notation?
or people just have an idea what standard notation is?
I have tons of classical guitar sheet music (standard notation of course) from which I learn the pieces,
and yes, the majority of it is completely notated as to how to play the pieces.
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  #69  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:30 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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I have tons of classical guitar sheet music (standard notation of course) from which I learn the pieces,
and yes, the majority of it is completely notated as to how to play the pieces.
thank you!
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  #70  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:30 AM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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Originally Posted by MICHAEL MYERS View Post
I've recently spent a lot of time transcribing Rev Gary Davis's stuff using "Transcribe" to slow things down. I wouldn't have a hope in hell of playing a lot of it up to speed at first but that's what I'm spending my practice time doing at the moment. Occasionally I'm tempted to buy the Stefan Grossman books but I like the challenge of doing it myself (as long as I really like the tune).

I find even in the simpler stuff, there are loads of quirks that can be picked up from players only through careful listening and working things out. A tab can be a good guide sometimes, but the listening bit is ten times more vital. Sometimes perhaps starting out with the tab for a skeleton guide and then putting it away can work out pretty good.
Yup.

I agree with what you say when it's about a style I'm already familiar with.

When it's a totally new style, I feel like I need to know the "master's" fingering -- or at least become acquainted with it.

But then again I speak as someone who has spent many years practicing. When I first started, trust me, I NEEDED those tabs!!! LOL
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  #71  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:32 AM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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lol.... what? is anaybody here plays from standard notation?
or people just have an idea what standard notation is?
I kindly suggest you take this comment back.
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  #72  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:33 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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I kindly suggest you take this comment back.
it wasn addresed to you my friend
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  #73  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:34 AM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
I have tons of classical guitar sheet music (standard notation of course) from which I learn the pieces,
and yes, the majority of it is completely notated as to how to play the pieces.
Standard notation for guitar gives you indications and hints throughout the score, especially in areas where players might wonder where to go.

It does not tell you exactly and systematically where to put your fingers like tablature does.

That was my point.
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  #74  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:35 AM
Odie1974 Odie1974 is offline
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lol.... what? is anaybody here plays from standard notation?
or people just have an idea what standard notation is?
Lol I do... The majority of my pieces are in standard notation
Paikon, I am assuming you know this already - but the standard notation can be of varying quality as well. GOOD qulaity std (prepared specifically for guitar) has fingerings as well.

Unfortunately the notation one gets from tab coversion software is of poor quality...

I can read, I can play note by note, or I can play more "free form". It all depends...
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  #75  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:35 AM
Paikon Paikon is offline
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Originally Posted by JoeCharter View Post
Standard notation for guitar gives you indications and hints throughout the score, especially in areas where players might wonder where to go.

It does not tell you exactly and systematically where to put your fingers like tablature does.

That was my point.
you are wrong on this
edit if the composer/arranger wants you to know where to put your fingers he will tell you through standard notation
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