Insightful experience with K&K's today

[Gypsyblue]

I'm getting kind of tired of the other thread - thought I'd start a new one.

Played at church this morning. Both services.

Brought my Gibson ES-335 and my modded Princeton Reverb Amp, and my Blueridge BR163 w/K&K's and my Red Eye preamp.

I played the first service all acoustic although I played with the band: drummer, keyboard and bass. My guitar sounded real good and the sound with the band was real good too.

Second service we had a singer/guitarist play a couple of solo numbers and he asked if he could borrow my acoustic guitar because it sounded so good to him. I said sure.

Then he said: "Do you mind if I down tune it?" I said "OK...I'll just play the tunes I'm playing today on my electric instead of my acoustic."

So he played a song at the beginning and a song near the end. And the guy was not a very accomplished guitarist.

And guess what? My guitar sounded awful!

The guy had an aggressive strumming style. Didn't finger the chords cleanly either.

Sounded like he'd only been playing two or three years. Not a seasoned or mature player for sure.

If I were hearing K&K's for the first time I would have thought they were absolute crap based on the sound I heard through the PA listening to the sound that this guy got.

Guess what I'm saying is that any guitar is only going to sound as good as the player and the player's touch.

I have a pretty light touch. I like to shape my sound with my hands.

This guy hadn't learned to do that yet.

But here's the kicker. He did one song on my guitar with the K&K's and the second song on his own guitar with a mic in front of it - no pickup in his guitar.

And his guitar with a mic in front of it sounded better than him playing my guitar with the K&K's.

All I can think is that the mic is more forgiving of aggressive technique than the K&K's.

Because when I play my guitar it sounds nothing like when this guy played my guitar.

That's about it.

Just an interesting observation.

[SpruceTop]

It takes a different technique to play well with an on-board pickup system compared to an external mic. It takes time and practice to develop a good technique to play well with on-board pickup systems because they amplify the immediacy of attack and musical and mechanical transients.

Regards,

SpruceTop

[zhunter]

I do believe it is up to the player to make the best of what he has. But isn't this just another one of those if you don't get it, it's because you are not good enough posts? Several seemingly experienced players did not love the K&K. Maybe it just wasn't right for them. It doesn't mean they aren't good enough to appreciate and use it.

hunter

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

It takes a different technique to play well with an on-board pickup system compared to an external mic. It takes time and practice to develop a good technique to play well with on-board pickup systems because they amplify the immediacy of attack and musical and mechanical transients.

Regards,

SpruceTop

I think so too.

And I think that's why some players don't get a good sound out of K&K's.

IMO, I think it may take a lighter touch than some guys have.

Those guys without that touch might even sound better playing through a mic.

This guy today sure did.

It was pointed out in the other thread that Richie Havens prefered playing guitar through a mic.

Richie was a super gifted musician.

And he was a heck of a strummer.

[ljguitar]

Hi GB…

How far did he down-tune your guitar?

If he down-tuned it, he wasn't playing your guitar the way it was setup & strung…and it sounds like his guitar was setup for his style of play.

If he played sloppy, and didn't adjust his touch to the instrument, then HE sounded terrible, not the guitar.

Sounds to me that just because he sounded better on his guitar through a mic than on yours with your rig doesn't mean he sounded good.

I love reality checks.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

It takes a different technique to play well with an on-board pickup system compared to an external mic. It takes time and practice to develop a good technique to play well with on-board pickup systems because they amplify the immediacy of attack and musical and mechanical transients.

Regards,

SpruceTop

Hi SpruceTop…

I disagree with your premise…at least on a personal level.

The point of this post is that one should not have to adapt his/her style when playing onstage over anywhere else he/she plays. And one's playing style should not have to be 'adapted' or 'altered' no matter what you are playing through.

I think it takes more skill to play normally on stage than in a living room whether through a mic or pickup system. And it takes a decent pickup system, or a very high end mic (and other gear) which are matched to ones playing style to pull it off naturally.

It's a deliberate effort on my part to play my guitars exactly the same, whether playing them the living room, or on stage (via pickups or mics).

The only reason a pickup exposes things more readily than a microphone is a pickup system is about twice as loud through the typical PA system as a microphone. That doesn't mean the mic is better. It's just missing or masking a lot. The increase of volume from pickups is specifically what allows us to play acoustic guitars the same on stage as in the living room.

Using a microphone requires no less care or skill than using a pickup system.

I'd contend that using a typical stage mic forces one to play in a less natural playing style, since one cannot move around once the mic is in place or else it will cause tonal shifts, and lose volume. I don't sit perfectly still at home when I play. So playing with a mic for me causes a radical shift in my playing posture, and my normally free and 'moving' (physically) style.

I observe that most players have a tendency to overplay acoustic guitars when using only a microphone through PA systems, because of the lack of volume. When they think they are not being heard, players tend to over-play.

As a folk player developing his skills amidst the rock world of the 1960s, I was thrilled when the 1980s brought along more decent acoustic guitar pickup rigs. I could almost match the volume of my rock compatriots.

The 1990s (and Fishman) pushed undersaddle/preamp technology along, and by the early 2000s through the present, respectable dual-source pickup companies have now improved pickups tremendously. Now I can join my rock compatriots on stage with my acoustic.

My point again is, there is absolutely no reason an acoustic player should have to adapt his/her style or technique when playing onstage over anywhere else he/she plays. If one masters the use of his/her gear (amps, monitors, preamps, etc) there would be no reason to change his/her playing style.

I fully acknowledge professional sound stages, crews, and high end equipment do make it possible to play acoustic instruments as freely with condenser microphones as with pickups. And we are talking about systems and equipment which do not exist in typical coffee shops, churches, or bars, most Civic auditoriums, or travel to gigs in the vans of musicians (other than bluegrass players).

[J Patrick]

...there is always a learning curve when using new gear and the more experienced a player becomes the steeper the curve becomes...thats applies to everybody....that said...i've known some very experienced players that don't get on with K&K pickups for various reasons.....matching styles and tastes to gear is the main thing....that and spending time with the setup one chooses.....thats what it takes to sound your best....

[Ed-in-Ohio]

There are too many variables and subjective results to make any causal conclusions here. (and, IMO, this sentence applies to EVERY discussion of acoustic and amplified acoustic tone. )

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi GB…

How far did he down-tune your guitar?

If he down-tuned it, he wasn't playing your guitar the way it was setup & strung…and it sounds like his guitar was setup for his style of play.

If he played sloppy, and didn't adjust his touch to the instrument, then HE sounded terrible, not the guitar.

Sounds to me that just because he sounded better on his guitar through a mic than on yours with your rig doesn't mean he sounded good.

I love reality checks.

Hi Larry!

Me too. (Regarding reality!)

I usually have my acoustic guitars in dropped tunings. Open D, Open G or DADGAD. I usually bring 2 or 3 acoustic guitars to a gig so I can have at least one in standard tuning and the other (or others) in dropped tunings.

So that wasn't it.

This fellow who played yesterday had an old Alvarez that was beat to heck. No pickup in it.

And he had steel rock n roll strings on it because he didn't know any better.

Unwound G string. Probably a .010 - .046 set. Something like that.

And the reason he wanted to play my guitar was that #1 mine sounded better and #2 his guitar was buzzing like crazy because he had a reverse bow in the neck from the super light strings not having enough tension.

I picked up his guitar after the services and checked it out and offered to adjust the truss rod for him to give his neck a little relief.

We took it into what we call Fellowship Hall, I borrowed an allen wrench set from the drummer and tried to help him out but the truss rod nut wouldn't budge.

I didn't have any oil or Liquid Wrench on hand.

What I recommended was that he take his ax over to the local hardware store and buy an allen wrench, put a drop or two of penetrating oil on the threads of the truss rod nut and then put a good set of phosphor bronze lights on the guitar. Then tune it the way he likes to tune it and then loosen the truss nut a tad until he could hold the low E string down at the first fret and highest fret and see a little light under the string and the top of the 5th/7th fret.

I hope he's capable of doing that.

But his guitar. even set up the way it was set up with steel rock n roll strings sounded better with a mic than mine did set up with proper strings and the K&K's.

And I'm certain it was his aggressive, somewhat sloppy, playing style that made the difference.

Much like Richie Havens, who I've always liked and admired, prefers to play through a microphone on a stand rather than use a pickup because he feels his guitar sounds better with his aggressive strumming style.

A style, I might add, that I've always admired when Richie does it.

So the first hand insight I got is that it's true: the K&K's seem to best fit players with a lighter touch, perhaps those with a fairly decent finger picking style or lighter picking style, and who don't strum the bejeezuz out of the guitar.

The heavy handed thing doesn't seem to work as well with K&K's as just putting a mic in front of the guitar.

Would you agree?

[Vancebo]

I think the OP's experience an be said for any pickup and any guitar for sure. I had a friend in my church borrow my guitar so he could sing a song. He was a gifted singer not a very good guitar player. His guitar didn't have a pickup. Without a runthrough or soundcheck he did his song. He played my guitar the same way he played his in his living room and didn't adjust his technique to what he heard coming from my Bose L1 and unfortunately it really distracted from a great vocal. It wasn't a K&K in the guitar.

I would conclude that it could happen with any pickup. Chalk it up to plain old misuse of gear. I would also conclude that Larry sets up his sound in a live situation so that he can play his guitar with the same touch and feel that he would anytime. Sounds like good advice.

When us guitarists play live, we are really playing 2 instruments at once. We better learn to play them both.

[Gypsyblue]

Same thing.

This fellow could sing well.

Just not a very accomplished guitarist.

BTW, I want to make it clear that I like Richie Havens playing style and don't think Richie played poorly or sloppy.

In fact, his version of Handsome Johnny and Here Comes the Sun at Woodstock was one of the performances that got me into playing in open tunings.

Although I don't play much in that style these days.

I did try to copy it early on though. 30 or 40 years ago.

I believe Richie was also accomplished on the drums, especially conga drums, so he really did that strumming thing well.

By the way, stay away from that brown acid.

[stephenT]

The OP is suggesting (correctly in my opinion) that the K&K lacks a usable dynamic range and that's my experience as well.

With a good pickup, when you pick or play harder, the volume increases but with the K&K when you dig in it gets woofy (bass heavy) and less defined.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi SpruceTop…

I disagree with your premise…at least on a personal level.

The point of this post is that one should not have to adapt his/her style when playing onstage over anywhere else he/she plays. And one's playing style should not have to be 'adapted' or 'altered' no matter what you are playing through.

I think it takes more skill to play normally on stage than in a living room whether through a mic or pickup system. And it takes a decent pickup system, or a very high end mic (and other gear) which are matched to ones playing style to pull it off naturally.

It's a deliberate effort on my part to play my guitars exactly the same, whether playing them the living room, or on stage (via pickups or mics).

The only reason a pickup exposes things more readily than a microphone is a pickup system is about twice as loud through the typical PA system as a microphone. That doesn't mean the mic is better. It's just missing or masking a lot. The increase of volume from pickups is specifically what allows us to play acoustic guitars the same on stage as in the living room.

Using a microphone requires no less care or skill than using a pickup system.

I'd contend that using a typical stage mic forces one to play in a less natural playing style, since one cannot move around once the mic is in place or else it will cause tonal shifts, and lose volume. I don't sit perfectly still at home when I play. So playing with a mic for me causes a radical shift in my playing posture, and my normally free and 'moving' (physically) style.

I observe that most players have a tendency to overplay acoustic guitars when using only a microphone through PA systems, because of the lack of volume. When they think they are not being heard, players tend to over-play.

As a folk player developing his skills amidst the rock world of the 1960s, I was thrilled when the 1980s brought along more decent acoustic guitar pickup rigs. I could almost match the volume of my rock compatriots.

The 1990s (and Fishman) pushed undersaddle/preamp technology along, and by the early 2000s through the present, respectable dual-source pickup companies have now improved pickups tremendously. Now I can join my rock compatriots on stage with my acoustic.

My point again is, there is absolutely no reason an acoustic player should have to adapt his/her style or technique when playing onstage over anywhere else he/she plays. If one masters the use of his/her gear (amps, monitors, preamps, etc) there would be no reason to change his/her playing style.

I fully acknowledge professional sound stages, crews, and high end equipment do make it possible to play acoustic instruments as freely with condenser microphones as with pickups. And we are talking about systems and equipment which do not exist in typical coffee shops, churches, or bars, most Civic auditoriums, or travel to gigs in the vans of musicians (other than bluegrass players).

Hi Larry,

Your points are well-taken. To further my point, if a player develops their technique to play well with a pickup system--it doesn't take long--that technique translates well back to when using only a mic or playing only acoustically. Playing with a pickup can lead a player to develop better playing technique because of its immediacy in magnifying and hearing every transient, sloppiness and knock, etc. I believe once technique is developed after first encountering and playing with a pickup system for some time, it can translate to other playing situations. Vice versa, many players today have only played with on-board pickup systems and would have to learn proper mic technique, such as moving in or away from the mic, depending on desired dynamics for soloing or rhythm. Encountering all the nuances of playing through different modes of amplification can be ingrained in a player and become part of their playing technique. I'd describe the whole process as a kind of what comes first the chicken or egg type go-round or feedback loop thing.

Regards,

SpruceTop

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by talkgtr

The OP is suggesting (correctly in my opinion) that the K&K lacks a usable dynamic range and that's my experience as well.

With a good pickup, when you pick or play harder, the volume increases but with the K&K when you dig in it gets woofy (bass heavy) and less defined.

That thing about the dynamic range might be true. Although the K&K's are a "good pickup". Maybe you meant a good magnetic pickup?

I am not an aggressive heavy handed player.

However, what I heard yesterday was that the guy who borrowed my guitar simply did not get a pleasant sound out of my guitar.

It did not sound woofy or bass heavy until the soundman attempted to improve his sound by adding more bass than was needed when I played it during the first service.

When I played it it did not need more bass. But in order to get a fuller sound when he played it the soundman seemed to think more bass might help.

And at that point it did sound bass heavy. But it was the guy's playing style and the soundman - not the K&K's or the guitar.

Well...maybe it was the K&K's. Maybe they do crash with a heavy handed, aggressive picking style.

Maybe, as you say, the K&K's are easily overloaded with that style of playing.

I see now that the K&K's are not for everyone and perhaps are best suited to players with a lighter touch and a more subtle, less driving playing style.

Maybe those guys with a driving, aggressive strumming style might even sound better playing through an external mic...as was the case with Richie Havens - a guy who I do admire and do enjoy listening to.

However, Richie did not usually play with a loud band.

I don't know what the answer is for those guys who do play acoustic guitar with a loud band because I don't have much experience playing acoustic guitar with a loud band.

I do enjoy playing with a fairly loud band when I play my electric guitars though. Although I prefer smallish amps (around 20 watts) so I can get my sound without playing to loud.

[stephenT]

I really mean any good pickup should be dynamically responsive. But yes, a magnetic sound hole pickup is my choice because of that reason.

I play softly with my fingers and I also play single note leads with a pick. I'm not heavy handed and I expect the pickup to accurately relate the dynamics of my playing. This could be the acoustic duo or in a low volume band setting.