Insightful experience with K&K's today

[Petty1818]

I agree that there's a bit of a technique adjustment when using different pickup systems. However, I don't think it's a dramatic one. When I play my Matrix equipped Taylor, my style is a bit different than when I use my K&K equipped Larrivee. I just know the limitations and what each pickup can do. UST's have more of an immediate attack and SBT's obviously pick up more of the body of the instrument. I will grab the right guitar/pickup for the right situation. I am used to them now but it still does take me a bit of time to adjust if I have played one pickup system more than the other.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by talkgtr

I really mean any good pickup should be dynamically responsive. But yes, a magnetic sound hole pickup is my choice because of that reason.

I play softly with my fingers and I also play single note leads with a pick. I'm not heavy handed and I expect the pickup to accurately relate the dynamics of my playing. This could be the acoustic duo or in a low volume band setting.

Well "should be" and reality are two different things.

But from the way you describe your playing I would guess that you "should" get a nice sound from just about "any good pickup".

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Gypsyblue

…So the first hand insight I got is that it's true: the K&K's seem to best fit players with a lighter touch, perhaps those with a fairly decent finger picking style or lighter picking style, and who don't strum the bejeezuz out of the guitar.
…The heavy handed thing doesn't seem to work as well with K&K's as just putting a mic in front of the guitar.
…Would you agree?

Hi G-blue…

I have lots of medium to medium-hard strummer friends who get along fine with K&K pickups, and I sure don't agree that they have a limited dynamic range compared to any other pickup except magnetic pickups.

And, tappers, and slappers, have adopted soundboard transducers because of the full, fat sound and the ability to amplify various types of string attack with good force through amps and PA systems.

K&K don't have bullet-proof dynamic range, and someone who is an over the top strummer can push K&Ks (and guitars, and strings) to their limits.

Actually Richie Havens might not be your best example. When I compare video from Woodstock to what he's doing in this past decade, Richie has modified his strumming style to a much more moderate and flexible stroke. If he were actually playing as hard as his face indicates, he might not get along well with soundboard transducers (or undersaddle piezo) pickups.

He actually has a very free and light wrist stroke and is not applying full-force to the strings. His fastest strumming is amazing, and his lightest.

And he's probably ALWAYS going to use a mic because it's his thing. He still gets that percussive sound, but he's not tearing his guitar up.

K&Ks do not work well for people who drop their picking hand onto the bridge as they strum (close to the bridge). I have a friend who has done that for 30 years, and he's well suited for a magnetic pickup. He makes guitars with K&Ks "POP" through PA systems because he forcefully strikes the bridge with the edge of his hand as he does his down-stroke.

To answer your direct question (quoted above) while a microphone might sound better than a K&K for a player like him, a microphone is not his best choice. He is in a band which generates pretty substantial stage volume. Magnetic pickups are his pickup of choice (not the sound-hole clip in type but a Baggs M-1).

While K&K are not a universally best pickup, they are about the best average pickups around according to our local guitar tech, who installs 2-3 K&K Pure Mini pickups a week and has for several years now. And the locals are not ripping them out.

They show up with them at open mics, coffee house gigs, and on our worship teams with great regularity, and when we are running sound, we're very happy to see them.

And your example from last weekend is pretty extreme. I don't know if a mic is best for the guy. I think a few helpful hints on strings, action, and learning to play better might be of more benefit.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

K&K don't have bullet-proof dynamic range, and someone who is an over the top strummer can push K&Ks (and guitars, and strings) to their limits.

To answer your direct question (quoted above) while a microphone might sound better than a K&K for a player like him, a microphone is not his best choice. He is in a band which generates pretty substantial stage volume. Magnetic pickups are his pickup of choice (not the sound-hole clip in type but a Baggs M-1).

While K&K are not a universally best pickup, they are about the best average pickups around according to our local guitar tech, who installs 2-3 K&K Pure Mini pickups a week and has for several years now. And the locals are not ripping them out.

They show up with them at open mics, coffee house gigs, and on our worship teams with great regularity, and when we are running sound, we're very happy to see them.

And your example from last weekend is pretty extreme. I don't know if a mic is best for the guy. I think a few helpful hints on strings, action, and learning to play better might be of more benefit.

I agree.

And the K&K's and the Baggs M1 are my two favorite pickups in their price range. So we agree there too.

I did try to help the guy yesterday. So we're in agreement there too.

Actually, I usually do agree with you.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Gypsyblue

…And the K&K's and the Baggs M1 are my two favorite pickups in their price range.

Hi G-blue…
It's those days/gigs like you had this past weekend that force us to work the equipment and distract us from playing the music that also force me to learn and grow how to handle those situations better in the future.

I'm wondering if you didn't just handle it well enough that upsetting as it was, it didn't cause any disruption for the congregation or the flow of the service.

[martingitdave]

You get an "Amen" from me on the OP.

[stephenT]

Originally Posted by Gypsyblue

Well "should be" and reality are two different things.

But from the way you describe your playing I would guess that you "should" get a nice sound from just about "any good pickup".

I do get a great sound from my Sunrise>Buffer Box> Schertler Jam 400.

I've had K&Ks installed in two guitars and removed them, proper K&K preamp, correctly installed, etc. etc. If we are counting the K&K as "any good pickup", then no I could not get a a nice sound, let alone an inspiring sound.

[smurph1]

Originally Posted by Gypsyblue

Same thing.

This fellow could sing well.

Just not a very accomplished guitarist.

BTW, I want to make it clear that I like Richie Havens playing style and don't think Richie played poorly or sloppy.

In fact, his version of Handsome Johnny and Here Comes the Sun at Woodstock was one of the performances that got me into playing in open tunings.

Although I don't play much in that style these days.

I did try to copy it early on though. 30 or 40 years ago.

I believe Richie was also accomplished on the drums, especially conga drums, so he really did that strumming thing well.

By the way, stay away from that brown acid.

I should've listened to that brown acid advice

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi G-blue…
It's those days/gigs like you had this past weekend that force us to work the equipment and distract us from playing the music that also force me to learn and grow how to handle those situations better in the future.

I'm wondering if you didn't just handle it well enough that upsetting as it was, it didn't cause any disruption for the congregation or the flow of the service.

Nah. Everything was fine. I even tried to help him get his guitar set up right.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by talkgtr

I do get a great sound from my Sunrise>Buffer Box> Schertler Jam 400.

I've had K&Ks installed in two guitars and removed them, proper K&K preamp, correctly installed, etc. etc. If we are counting the K&K as "any good pickup", then no I could not get a a nice sound, let alone an inspiring sound.

Nothing wrong with the Sunrise. I like them too. Used one in a Lowden for a few years and liked it very much. Sold it with the Lowden when we parted ways and switched to K&K's after that.

I wasn't crazy about the K&K preamp though. For whatever reason I could never get the tone adjusted right. Just didn't work for me.

I sold it and got a RedEye preamp/direct box and I like the sound of that with the K&K's much, much better.

I'm a big fan of the Red Eye and the lack of tone controls on it (it only has a treble control and that is designed to remove the scratchiness of a violin bow) has never been a problem because the PA's I plug into have plenty of tone controls.

I do use a RedEye for each guitar. Each guitar gets its own RedEye preamp.

That way, each guitar also gets its own channel and its own set of EQ controls on the PA board.

Regarding the supposed lack of dynamic range of the K&K's (and that might be true...) the RedEye has a boost switch I can adjust the volume increase of and if I need it louder I just step on the switch.

I can preset the boost to boost the volume a little or a lot. Works well.

That's what the Red Button is for:

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Gypsyblue

…I wasn't crazy about the K&K preamp though. For whatever reason I could never get the tone adjusted right. Just didn't work for me.

Hi Gb…
It's an amazing time to want/need a pickup system. There are good ones out there.

I own one K&K Preamp, and have played with the rest of their standard line with my guitars and K&K rigs (not the one for the external mount mic).

I find K&K preamps overpriced, and under featured compared to other available preamps. They don't sound or work as good as my other blender/preamps with my guitars and rigs. Not what I expected when I discovered the K&K Pure mini and internal mics. I thought their offerings would be top-tier. They are not horrible, but they are not worth the extra money.

Should a preamp add character to the sound?
I know people say preamps are allegedly not supposed to color sound, but that is precisely what we want them to do. We want to add tone control, and high-light aspects of our playing/sound through the rigs we play them through.

I DO want my pickup rig to sound like my main guitars, which all three are handbuilt. Those of us who say "We want the preamp/pickup to sound like our guitar only louder" probably have awesome guitars and better than average amp or PA systems to reproduce them with.

Other players really get into the pickup game apparently hoping a pickup rig will enhance the lack of tone or deficient qualities of their instruments. It seems many are willing to spend $750-1000 on a pickup, preamp and amp to 'enhance' a $500 guitar hoping it will sound like a $2000 instrument.

[Vancebo]

The times I tune into DADGAD and play my solo fingerstyle stuff I get a bigger than life sound. It's like turning my $5000 instrument into a $30,000 instrument at times.

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Gb…
It's an amazing time to want/need a pickup system. There are good ones out there.

I own one K&K Preamp, and have played with the rest of their standard line with my guitars and K&K rigs (not the one for the external mount mic).

I find K&K preamps overpriced, and under featured compared to other available preamps. They don't sound or work as good as my other blender/preamps with my guitars and rigs. Not what I expected when I discovered the K&K Pure mini and internal mics. I thought their offerings would be top-tier. They are not horrible, but they are not worth the extra money.

Should a preamp add character to the sound?
I know people say preamps are allegedly not supposed to color sound, but that is precisely what we want them to do. We want to add tone control, and high-light aspects of our playing/sound through the rigs we play them through.

I DO want my pickup rig to sound like my main guitars, which all three are handbuilt. Those of us who say "We want the preamp/pickup to sound like our guitar only louder" probably have awesome guitars and better than average amp or PA systems to reproduce them with.

Other players really get into the pickup game apparently hoping a pickup rig will enhance the lack of tone or deficient qualities of their instruments. It seems many are willing to spend $750-1000 on a pickup, preamp and amp to 'enhance' a $500 guitar hoping it will sound like a $2000 instrument.

Thanks for that Larry.

I guess I do want my preamp to add a certain character to my guitar.

The K&K preamp added a character I didn't care for.

The Red-Eye preamp adds a character I do care for.

It's not the only one that sounds good or which would probably sound good to me. I know that.

But with four guitars with K&K's, and knowing that I like the combination of the K&K and the Red-Eye, I just decided to stick with that. For consistencys sake if for no other reason.

Since I have four guitars with internal pickups, the K&K's were a "best buy" for me. No way would I be willing to pay $3000 - 4000 to put pickups in those four guitars.

$400? Sure!

The K&K's cost me about $100 each and times four that's $400.

Of course I did have to invest in some preamps. But you'd have to spend money on preamps regardless of what pickup you put inside your guitar.

Incidentally, the Baggs M1 soundhole pickup in my Seagull sounds better to me without a preamp. I just plug it straight into my guitar amp: an old Fender Princeton Reverb or Deluxe Reverb or Gibson GA20. I also like putting an Electro Harmonix Deluxe Memory Man analog delay between the M1 and the guitar amp.

But I wanted a more electric sound from that guitar since I use it primarily for electric slide.

[6L6]

Sounds like that dude would have sounded bad even on a Pre War D-45 like this one:

[Gypsyblue]

Originally Posted by 6L6

Sounds like that dude would have sounded bad even on a Pre War D-45 like this one:

Phew!

I'd think that old Gibson Explorer would be a fun one too! I've always wanted one.