Scales?! (I know...)

[futboljim]

Look up Stich Method on YouTube. He does a very nice job of helping with the how, why, and when for learning and using scales.

Regardless of whose methodology you follow, most of the work is on you to learn and adapt. It’s a fun journey, remember to explore a little along the way, it will enhance your learning and make things more fun!

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by funkapus

Playing it at the fifth fret makes that pattern produce the notes of an Am pentatonic scale. Playing it at the eighth fret makes that pattern produce the notes of a Cm pentatonic scale. Playing it at the nut causes it to produce the notes of an Em pentatonic scale. But this pattern is usually referred to as the "Em pentatonic scale pattern" in every instructional source I've ever seen or heard, and as I understand it that's because the Em chord *shape* (as opposed to an Em chord sound) is contained within the scale pattern.

OK Interesting, I had only heard it called or referred to as the "first position pattern " for the Minor pentatonic scales or "Minor Pentatonic Scale pattern #1" I only picked Am in the 5th fret as an arbitrary starting point . I suppose I could have said start with the Minor pentatonic scale pattern #1 at the 5th fret which will give you an Am pentatonic scale

And to clarify the diagram images were straight off of the results of googling the words "A minor pentatonic scale pattern guitar " And as you can note in the diagram it is in fact labeled as such.


I understand what you are saying about relationship of the underlying chord shape relative to the notes in the scale being played, and how that becomes something to begin to understand as one gets further into theory and playing leads or playing chords up the neck ... BUT that seems more to do the CAGED system and I agree with your advice to the OP to not worry about at this point .

And did not see it really applying to the point I was making. Which was when playing that pattern starting from the 5 th fret (as per the diagram ) ...It's an A minor 1 st position pentatonic scale pattern.... AND that same exact pattern in the exact same fret box location (5th to 8th ) played by starting on the eighth fret as the root note is also the 5 th position of a C major pentatonic scale (for which A minor is the relative minor ) as depicted in the Circle of 5ths when the relative minors are shown . So it that context calling it anything other that an A minor pent. serves no efficient practical function

And to add to that point ..That one single pattern once learned, can be switched back and forth from the 5th position for a the major, to the 1st position for the relative minor . In the same location for most of the fretboard (until too close to the nut for the major ) So in this context calling that pattern based on the starting root note seemed like a pretty efficient method for understanding one good " learning Key" about the major and relative minor keys, and how that relates to a specific pentatonic pattern and to start to quickly learn how to play them

[Matt.S]

I'm not sure how to individually respond to people without taking up a whole page... Thank you so much everyone for all the guidance so far! Way better responses than I anticipated. I'm going to try and parse out responses to each as everyone has been very helpful.

With Valentine's day and planning my wife's birthday I haven't had much time to play. It's funny as I read this Tuesday after playing for a couple days straight and it made a lot of sense. Now I read it Friday after a two day hiatus and I feel like I'm reading calculus!

I'm not sure I like the CAGED method, the relationships to the scales to chord shapes. I guess I see what it is getting at; root notes are in similar positions to the chord it is related to. I just feel I'll have an easier time remembering patterns instead. Then again I look at a full sheet of different patterns and it is also overwhelming.

One thing I can't quite figure out regarding patterns is if the point is to play root to root why do a lot of these start a half step before the root (this may not be always the case but just in my limited experience). I.E. G Major, Pattern 4, Root is on the 3rd Fret (G) but the Pattern starts on the 2nd Fret (F#).

Also would it be better to learn from start to finish, say with the Major Scales and build into the Blues Scales as most books and "lessons" seem to do? Or is it okay to start with my area of focus now and then the rest will fall in line? I'm more concerned with efficiency of the whole board than say learning how to solo the Am Pentatonic and just stopping there.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Matt.S

I'm not sure how to individually respond to people without taking up a whole page... Thank you so much everyone for all the guidance so far! Way better responses than I anticipated. I'm going to try and parse out responses to each as everyone has been very helpful.

With Valentine's day and planning my wife's birthday I haven't had much time to play. It's funny as I read this Tuesday after playing for a couple days straight and it made a lot of sense. Now I read it Friday after a two day hiatus and I feel like I'm reading calculus!

I'm not sure I like the CAGED method, the relationships to the scales to chord shapes. I guess I see what it is getting at; root notes are in similar positions to the chord it is related to. I just feel I'll have an easier time remembering patterns instead. Then again I look at a full sheet of different patterns and it is also overwhelming.

That's why I like CAGED (up to a point). Chord shapes are easier to remember than scale patterns!
I taught myself the fretboard (decades ago) using the same intuitive (and obvious) process, without realising it was a "system" that people write books on and make money from!
It's simply the way the fretboard is: major chords are formed using 5 different shapes. We happen to learn those 5 shapes as beginners, giving them the names of the sounds they produce in open position: C A G E D. It so happens that the shapes for any one chord overlap in that order up the neck, giving the handy acronym. E.g., these are all C chords in sound (they all contain the C E G notes):

-0---3---8---8---12---12--------------
-1---5---5---8---13---13---------------
-0---5---5---9---12---12--------------
-2---5---5---10--10---14----------------
-3---3---7---10-(10)--15----------------
(3)-(3)--8---8---(12)-(15)------------------

That's the C-A-G-E-D-C shapes in order. For an F chord, for example, the shapes run E-D-C-A-D-E etc, starting on fret 1.

So if you learn scales for each chord in open position, then you really have the whole neck mapped out already.

Obviously the drawback for the CAGED system is that there is one name for the shape and another for the sound (except in open position and 12th fret)! (Personally I don't find it a problem: I "see" the shape, and I "know and hear" the sound.)
Lesser issues are (a) that each scale pattern contains all the other shapes for the key too; and (b) each chord shape can accommodate two other modes.
Again, that's not a serious problem, it's just expanding on the basic template.

One important thing to be aware when studying scale patterns and positions. The word "position" is used in two ways. It's common in modern teaching to name the various pentatonic and 7-note box patterns as "positions" (one to five).
In traditional (classical) teaching, OTOH, "position" refers to index fret number. So the popular A minor pentatonic pattern known as "1st position" (see earlier posts), would be known as "5th position" traditionally, because it's based on 5th fret. Various different patterns could be "in 5th position" if they're in the same place on the fretboard.
So you need to be aware of which system any teaching material is using.

Originally Posted by Matt.S

One thing I can't quite figure out regarding patterns is if the point is to play root to root why do a lot of these start a half step before the root (this may not be always the case but just in my limited experience). I.E. G Major, Pattern 4, Root is on the 3rd Fret (G) but the Pattern starts on the 2nd Fret (F#).

It's about fingering. Each finger has its own fret:

frets: 1   2   3   4   5
     |---|-F#|-G-|---|-A-|
     |---|---|-D-|---|-E-|
     |---|-A-|---|-B-|-C-|
     |---|-E-|---|-F#|-G-|
     |---|-B-|-C-|---|-D-|
     |---|-F#|-G-|---|-A-|
fingers:   1   2   3   4

One other major scale pattern is equally compact. The others require index to stretch back a fret, or pinky up a fret.
This is probably the best major scale pattern to begin with, as it contains two whole octaves of the scale (three roots), and fits around the common "E-form" barre shape (3rd fret barre in this case).
You can, of course, start playing the pattern on any note you choose (and run the notes in any order). Running from G up to G is the way to start when first learning the scale, so you hear the "do re mi" etc of the major scale. Once you know the finger positions, you should randomise the note order - experiment, and be musical!
Also hunt out the other chord shapes and arpeggios in that pattern (not all playable as whole shapes):
So the G chord (on strings 6-5-4-3-2-1) = frets 3-5-5-4-3-3;
C = 3-3-5-5-5-3
D = 2-5-4-2-3-2
Em = 3-2-2-4-5-3
Am = 5-3-2-5-5-5
Bm = 2-2-4-4-3-4

Originally Posted by Matt.S

Also would it be better to learn from start to finish, say with the Major Scales and build into the Blues Scales as most books and "lessons" seem to do? Or is it okay to start with my area of focus now and then the rest will fall in line? I'm more concerned with efficiency of the whole board than say learning how to solo the Am Pentatonic and just stopping there.

I would agree to start with major scales, and to see the minor and major pentatonics as subsets of those (omitting 2 notes per octave).
The alternative direction is to get the pents by starting from the chord shapes and adding 2 notes - which may be more useful.

E.g. "Em" chord shape:

|-R-|---|---|---|
|-5-|---|---|---|
|b3-|---|---|---|
|---|---|-R-|---|
|---|---|-5-|---|
|-R-|---|---|---|

"Em" pent pattern

|-R-|---|---|b3-|
|-5-|---|---|b7-|
|b3-|---|-4-|---|
|b7-|---|-R-|---|
|-4-|---|-5-|---|
|-R-|---|---|b3-

|

[Stratcat77]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Pattern practice most every day for some speed and accuracy. Making it nice to listen to musically is something else.

You're getting lots of good advice here on learning and practicing scales. All great important stuff to work on. Eventually, you'll form some muscle memory that helps these become more comfortable and natural.

But as is pointed out, making it sound nice to listen to is another thing. You'll hear guys "play scales", meaning they just play the notes in order in a mechanical way. To most, that doesn't sound nice or "musical".

I actually learned a lot of this stuff backwards.. I never had lessons, so I started off just trying to figure out solos I liked. I learned a lot of solos from recordings and got pretty good at replicating them, but for a long time had no idea what I was really playing or why it made sense musically. I really didn't even know what notes I was playing much of the time. There was no reason to bother even thinking about that.. I just memorized solos. But the good that came from that was muscle memory from playing certain common licks which then became second nature for me. As I got more comfortable and confident with those licks and patterns, it became easier and more natural to then apply some emotion to what I was playing because I wasn't struggling to just get the notes out. I was playing those notes and licks with a feeling of authority if that makes sense? How you play the notes (attack, vibrato, muting, bends, slides, etc) is so critical in conveying emotions and sounding musical. I had a very strong handle on those things way before I ever began taking the time to understand what I was playing.

Years later, I became more interested in learning more about theory and scales and why what I was playing made sense and tied together musically. There have been lot's of ah-ha moments as I began to better understand why those solos I'd simply memorized actually worked over the chords of those songs. I still have an ah-ha moment every so often as I stumble across something and realize, wow, so THAT is why when I play that lick or chord inversion it sounds good or fits..

[SunnyDee]

Matt S. Your mailbox is full.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Matt.S

One thing I can't quite figure out regarding patterns is if the point is to play root to root why do a lot of these start a half step before the root (this may not be always the case but just in my limited experience). I.E. G Major, Pattern 4, Root is on the 3rd Fret (G) but the Pattern starts on the 2nd Fret (F#).

A much simpler answer to this question - because that note right before the root is the 7th. The G major is G, A, B, C, D, E, F#. You wouldn't show someone that scale and leave out the 7th. The point is not to play root to root, it's to know where to find all the notes that are available to you in that scale.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Matt.S

One thing I can't quite figure out regarding patterns is if the point is to play root to root why do a lot of these start a half step before the root (this may not be always the case but just in my limited experience). I.E. G Major, Pattern 4, Root is on the 3rd Fret (G) but the Pattern starts on the 2nd Fret (F#).

The point is not so much to play root to root, per se, the point is know where the root notes are on the fret board . Because the root note is also the key of the song. And in order to make any melody or lead run sound like it belongs in the song knowing where the root notes are is one of those (keys to theory)

Also would it be better to learn from start to finish, say with the Major Scales and build into the Blues Scales as most books and "lessons" seem to do? Or is it okay to start with my area of focus now and then the rest will fall in line? I'm more concerned with efficiency of the whole board than say learning how to solo the Am Pentatonic and just stopping there.

First.... who said anything about learning to play the Am pentatonic and "Just STOPPING there ????? Pretty sure I suggested it as a STARTING point

Everybody's learning curve and strengths are different so no single method will the best for everybody.

Since you asked for thoughts I was offering what worked best for me

So do what think is best for you
For me it was far more efficient to get a good working picture of what was going on on the entire fretboard by learning the Pentatonic minor patterns first, one at a time (which automatically gives you the same exact pattern for the major pentatonics at the same time )

For me learning 5 sequential 5 note patterns (which give you the entire fretboard , one at a time.
Which always start on the root note
Which gave me the ability to play all up and down the fretboard in any major or minor key.
Which allowed a simple 5 note count to know where the next root note was
Which was then much easier to then learn afterwards where the other two notes were in relation to the pentatonic five for the natural major and minor scales and the blues notes as well
Which was much easier for me than attempting to start to learn far more complex 7 note patterns... YMMV

So with that I will leave you to your journey

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by KevWind

So do what think is best for you
For me it was far more efficient to get a good working picture of what was going on on the entire fretboard by learning the Pentatonic minor patterns first, one at a time (which automatically gives you the same exact pattern for the major pentatonics at the same time )

For me learning 5 sequential 5 note patterns (which give you the entire fretboard , one at a time.
Which always start on the root note
Which gave me the ability to play all up and down the fretboard in any major or minor key.
Which allowed a simple 5 note count to know where the next root note was
Which was then much easier to then learn afterwards where the other two notes were in relation to the pentatonic five for the natural major and minor scales and the blues notes as well
Which was much easier for me than attempting to start to learn far more complex 7 note patterns... YMMV

So with that I will leave you to your journey

As Keywind said, you do what works for you, but I would say there's nothing more complex about the 7 note pattern. The pentatonic simply removes the half-steps of the 7 note scale. But, for that matter, there's no reason to see this as 5 different patterns, imho. There's one pattern of intervals with 7 notes to make a major scale, WWHWWH, and another Whole step brings you to the octave. If you remove the two half-steps, that's the major pent. If you play the same pattern starting on the 6th note (scale degree) that's the minor, without the half-steps, that the minor pent. The only reason that I can glean that many guitarists start with the minor pent is because they want to learn to solo right away and the minor pent will sound good over both major and minor chords. It's a shortcut. Again, just my view, but it seems that many people confuse hand shapes/ fingering patterns with the actual pattern of notes on the fretboard in standard tuning or in a scale. All the major and minor keys are based on the same pattern of intervals and that pattern holds all over the fretboard in a predictable way. Other scales, blues and such, have different patterns, but for learning the fretboard, it makes sense to start with this one. Once you know that one pattern or the part of the pattern you are playing with, it doesn't matter where you play it or with which fingers, imo, at least in terms of learning the fretboard and understanding how the chords and scales are put together.

[Pitar]

I'd biff the entire notion of learning intervals, notes, roots, and the whole alphabet soup of attempting to get the eyes to train the hands. Get the ear going and let it train the hands. Learn the sound of your fretboard by ear and let it guide your hands with your eyes closed. After that, what you've spent so much time attempting to explain here in search of revelation will come to you organically.

[KevWind]

Dear OP
While it is true that just learning theory alone will not get you where you ultimately want to go

But I would ignore the specious notion that theory will just come to you from playing by ear . Well perhaps if your a genius or musical prodigy or the very least exceptionally gifted and talented . But the for the bulk us mere mortal musicians ? I would not count on it.
For the bulk of humanity an organised incremental learning process of learning theory (along with "listening" obviously ) will be far more efficient to get you where you want to go.
Trust me I played for 51 years almost exclusively by ear with only a vague notions of theory . BUT it was inefficient and problematic, especially when playing with others

That said there is no question that one should train the ear and hand relationship constantly while learning the elements of theory BUT Honestly that kinda falls into the DUH category, one would think.

And I always recommend practicing playing with eyes closed or better yet in a dark room. It really gets muscle memory into the equation.

[vindibona1]

Since you're just learning scales may I suggest you should take some time on a keyboard to learn them. The keyboard is completely linear so more straight forward than guitar that has identical notes up and down the fingerboard. A lot of folks get into "patterns" and get disconnected from the music (myself included on occasion) which is simply a lack of discipline and training. A keyboard will help you with the logic of the music which you can then apply to guitar.

As for your comment/question about flats going down, but no B# or E#... Using flats to go down and sharps to go up is logical because it gives the musician a sense of direction as well as often if not usually maintaining the key signature. And while there is no "physical" sharp between B and C or E and F, you will sometimes see a written B# or E#. A simple example of that is a C# major scale: C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C# where both B# and E# are written but the notes played will be the same as C and F (called enharmonic equivalents).

Ok... I can see your eyes glazing over. You don't need to know any more about this at this point except that this stuff exists in music.