What key, mode, etc. ?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Still - I'm not seeing F#m here mostly because of the G.

For the chorus, right. But the verse is more F# minor, IMO, because a minor i-iv is a more common sound than a minor v-i.

This could be a very common scenario of a minor key verse modulating to a major key chorus...

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Still thinking we need to hear a melody. It's going to put the harmony in perspective...since the harmony is playing to the melody.

This is a good point. Which reminds me of a couple of things.

First, a lot of times what sounds good and appealing as a chord progression is actually hard to add a melody to, because each chord mandates certain changes in the melody - more chords is essentially "boxing yourself in." Plus you get implied melody lines from various line cliches.

Secondly, often you can not deduce the key from the chords at all. I mean, I wrong a song where the chords early on are C C G C and we're in the key of C, and after the bridge the chords are C C G C, but now we're in the key of G. (I wasn't trying to be clever, it just came out that way).

Often, looking at the chords just suggests possible keys. I mean, yes, somethings it'll be hard to have anything but one key actually work - if your chords are Dm G7 C everybodys going to hear it in C almost regardless of what the melody is, and if you fight that it's going to just sound weird) but most chord progressions aren't that obvious.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

I wrong a song...

Yes, I've wronged a lot of songs like that too...

(So hard to decide between write and wrong sometimes...)

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by JonPR

For the chorus, right. But the verse is more F# minor, IMO, because a minor i-iv is a more common sound than a minor v-i.

This could be a very common scenario of a minor key verse modulating to a major key chorus...

Yeah it is common, but doesn't necessarily mean the verse is minor - could still be major but just coming to it from the vi chord. It's really a question of where the big hook/cadence is and how that resolves everything.

For instance, if we were to say this was D Major then the verse is the relative minor (Bm) in a sort of "it's not really Bm but it sure feels like Vm to Im in Bm until you hear the chorus and the cadence to D, and then the perspective becomes IIIm to VIm".

But again - it's really pointless speculation because the chords are secondary to the melody. the melody will pinpoint the key (and whether it is a single key or multiple keys). Chords should always support the melody. The harmony is just a setting for the melody to live in. To give it character.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Yeah it is common, but doesn't necessarily mean the verse is minor - could still be major but just coming to it from the vi chord. It's really a question of where the big hook/cadence is and how that resolves everything.

For instance, if we were to say this was D Major then the verse is the relative minor (Bm) in a sort of "it's not really Bm but it sure feels like Vm to Im in Bm until you hear the chorus and the cadence to D, and then the perspective becomes IIIm to VIm".

But again - it's really pointless speculation because the chords are secondary to the melody. the melody will pinpoint the key (and whether it is a single key or multiple keys). Chords should always support the melody. The harmony is just a setting for the melody to live in. To give it character.

All agreed.
The F#m focus of the verse is vague anyway. A minor i-iv is not a very strong indicator of tonality (aeolian mode at best). It might well sound like it's just waiting for a more definite key centre to arrive.
And you're right about the melody. Even if we just look at the F#m-Bm part, the melody could easily resolve to B all the time.

[LeftArm]

Jumping in above my head here. I read in a book write down all the notes;
F#m - F# A C#
Bm - B D F#

A - A C# E
E - E G# B
G - G B D
D - D F# A

They are the notes of the scale. Put them in order:
A B C# D E F# G#
Bob's your uncle A major.
The F#m could be considered as the relative minor or a change to F# Aeolian (really getting in too deep now!)

Am I over simplifying this?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by LeftArm

Jumping in above my head here. I read in a book write down all the notes;
F#m - F# A C#
Bm - B D F#

A - A C# E
E - E G# B
G - G B D
D - D F# A

They are the notes of the scale. Put them in order:
A B C# D E F# G#

You forgot the G natural....

Originally Posted by LeftArm

Bob's your uncle A major.

Except for that G...

Originally Posted by LeftArm

Am I over simplifying this?

Only slightly! (even if the G hadn't been there.)

(a) It's possible for a song to modulate between two keys (occasionally more), so looking for a single scale to cover a whole song won't always work.
Although if you bear that in mind and work section be section, it usually does.

(b) The pitch collection is only a clue to the "key". The "A major scale" could be various modes, each of which means a different keynote. (The sound will tell you that, not the list of notes or chords.) A, F#, E, B - those are all common keynotes for that scale. (And the addition of G natural might suggest other things too....)

Of course, in a sense, determining which note is keynote is irrelevant - an academic question. As long as you have all the notes down (and the chords), then you have all you need to solo on it.

[LeftArm]

You forgot the G natural....

Grrr...

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by JonPR

All agreed.
The F#m focus of the verse is vague anyway. A minor i-iv is not a very strong indicator of tonality (aeolian mode at best). It might well sound like it's just waiting for a more definite key centre to arrive.
And you're right about the melody. Even if we just look at the F#m-Bm part, the melody could easily resolve to B all the time.

Exactly - the melody could have completely unexpected resolution and fool us all ;-)

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Exactly - the melody could have completely unexpected resolution and fool us all ;-)

Yes - except (in the verse in this case) it could only be F# or B. The chords have that much control at least.
If the melody resolved to neither - to some other chord tone - then there would be no sense of resolution.
The key would then be settled by the chorus - unless the melody refused to play ball there too!
IOW, melody and chords (chord roots that is) need to work together to establish key. Either one could do it on its own. But together, the chord roots (in sequence) can point one way, and the melody another. If they disagree, no one wins; the chords can deny (or at least subvert) any tonic effect the melody produces, and vice versa. I'd say they were equally balanced - in this respect at least.

[rick-slo]

Gopultus, since this debate continues please step in and identify the song you were posting about (it's melody line).

[Dalegreen]

one could assume the songwriter just wrote out the chords in an ( open key / Atonal ) with no set key signature. As long as the melody is working with the chordal background then it must work for the songwriter.
Rules are only made so that they can be broken, that's that what Beethoven did on an ongoing basis

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by goplutus

Chords:

Verses contain these: F#m, Bm
Chorus, bridge contains these: A, E, G, D

It seems that this could be in either A or D, but the G doesn't fit in A / F#m, and the E doesn't fit in D/Bm.


I guess what I'm looking for: is there some name to apply if it's in D but with a major II chord instead of minor? (that could be the wrong question - it could be in one key for the verse and a key change for the chorus, etc.?)

I'd call it A major with a flat 7. Pretty common in modern folk and popular music.

[jetcode]

I spent many years going through musical theory. Now a days I am less interested in key and more interested in chord. Some of the best tunes modulate keys many times meaning there is no central key. In general the root note sets the home base for a key but if you listen to the music I play I walk through many keys all the time and it works and sometimes in very short sequences. The jazz cats track key to make sure they have the most appropriate instrument for the piece then focus on the chords in the tune they are playing.