Martin HD-28 with Trance Amulet M-VT ToneDexter Slot 22 WaveMap Sound File

[SpruceTop]

Hi Folks,

Here's another recording of "Crossing Muddy Waters" that I just made using the latest ToneDexter Version 1.20 update which includes NO LIVE-PERFORMANCE FEEDBACK-FIGHTING EQ on SLOT 22 for more natural guitar tone recording purposes. The recording was made with the Trance Amulet M-VT Tone Control on Full-Spectrum tone (Tone Wheel all the way to the treble-end of its travel), and with no additional EQ or Effects. The Shure SM81 small condenser mic was 10-inches out with the capsule pointed perpendicular to the Martin HD-28's 14th-fret neck/body joint. The flatpick is a Charmed Life .75 mm Brown (Vespel) and the strings are Martin MSP7200SW Medium-guage Phosphor Bronze.

[Cuki79]

Thanks Ken,

Great tone! I am now happy with my IR process. I could do longer IRs like the slot-22 style process to get that "reverb" tail but I like the sound to be dry.

In the Tonedexter process they trash many "samples" and select only the good ones. Of course the did not reveal in the patent on which criteria they actually choose which samples should be kept or trashed. So prior, to my last post, I kept all the samples and struggle with all kind of bad stuff. Now I've found a nice criterium and it works like a charm (I actually trash a lot of samples to get it right).

I hope people will realize how this thing is a game changer.

Cuki

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Thanks Ken,

Great tone! I am now happy with my IR process. I could do longer IRs like the slot-22 style process to get that "reverb" tail but I like the sound to be dry.

In the Tonedexter process they trash many "samples" and select only the good ones. Of course the did not reveal in the patent on which criteria they actually choose which samples should be kept or trashed. So prior, to my last post, I kept all the samples and struggle with all kind of bad stuff. Now I've found a nice criterium and it works like a charm (I actually trash a lot of samples to get it right).

I hope people will realize how this thing is a game changer.

Cuki

The ToneDexter is a game-changer for sure! The above sample isn't really distinguishable from using only a mic. Listeners need to take in that the WaveMap and recorded sample were generated using a flatpick played with a moderately-aggressive attack. Now, take the above ToneDexter WaveMap and use it to play the Martin HD-28 through a PA system with 15 to 30 feet of air between the speakers and audience members and the above sample just might give a better sound than using just a mic in the same situation. I'm not sure I can get a better-toned WaveMap but I'll keep trying and maybe next weekend I'll finally try using an Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina LDC to hear what that will do for the tone.

[Christopher Cozad]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

...I hope people will realize how this thing is a game changer.

Cuki

Agreed. For whatever reason I started thinking about inflatable rubber tires on our cars, how we have been using the same basic materials for decades. Advancements appear to be focused on reinforcing the rubber and "training" the tires to perform a certain way using tread patterns.

Piezo crystal pickups, in one form or another, have proven to be every bit as useful and reliable for sound reinforcement. If I liken the pre-amplification of a given pickup to strengthening, supporting and shaping the rubber tire material, I can compare the Impulse Response training to tire tread patterns.

Perhaps the next generation(s) of devices will combine the technologies (pickups, pre-amp, soundwave mapping) into a fully on-board solution...

[Christopher Cozad]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

...I'm not sure I can get a better-toned WaveMap...

It sounds pretty good from here. ;~}

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

... but I'll keep trying and maybe next weekend I'll finally try using an Ear Trumpet Labs Edwina LDC to hear what that will do for the tone.

Being a large diaphragm mic, I found the Edwina to be impressively "persnickety" and "fiddly" about positioning. I never paid this level of attention to the location of the Edwina. I went through a dozen wavemaps with it, moving it about and having huge differences in the results, before swapping in a couple of small condenser mic's and bang!, I got the sound I was looking for.

(I now have mixed feelings about the outcome, but that's a whole 'nother issue.)

I am resigned to the fact that mic selection and positioning issues are part of the learning curve with the ToneDexter, just as they would be for recording. The (perceived???) improvement to the overall sound is very, very impressive!

[guitaniac]

Thanks for the demo, Ken. It sounds exactly like I'd expect a recording of a miked HD28 to sound like. ToneDexter is a wonder, especially considering the low (for what it does) price.

For my own recording purposes, I might go with the regular Dexterized sound (resonant frequencies reduced) with that particular guitar. With a smaller guitar I'd probably prefer slot 22 training (resonant frequencies unaltered) for a recording WaveMap.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Thanks for the demo, Ken. It sounds exactly like I'd expect a recording of a miked HD28 to sound like. ToneDexter is a wonder, especially considering the low (for what it does) price.

For my own recording purposes, I might go with the regular Dexterized sound (resonant frequencies reduced) with that particular guitar. With a smaller guitar I'd probably prefer slot 22 training (resonant frequencies unaltered) for a recording WaveMap.

I think you're correct as a Martin HD-28 has a characteristic slight hollow darkness to its tone. It seems it's there no matter where I place the mic when training the ToneDexter.

[Petty1818]

It will be good to start hearing some feedback from users who have used the Tonedexter live. These audio samples are incredible but I must admit, when I would record my aura with the blend fairly high, I would get similar results. The tonedexter is more guitar specific and does sound better but would love to hear how it actually works live.

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

It will be good to start hearing some feedback from users who have used the Tonedexter live. These audio samples are incredible but I must admit, when I would record my aura with the blend fairly high, I would get similar results. The tonedexter is more guitar specific and does sound better but would love to hear how it actually works live.

I've been using it all summer: Martin CEO7 > K&K Mini pickup > Tonedexter

We've played outdoor venues with massive curved array speakers, and we've played intimate restaurants. It's been steamed and fried in the summer sun, and chilled in the frosty morning grass.

The Tonedexter is a complete game changer. If I lost it, I'd order another immediately.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

I've been using it all summer: Martin CEO7 > K&K Mini pickup > Tonedexter

We've played outdoor venues with massive curved array speakers, and we've played intimate restaurants. It's been steamed and fried in the summer sun, and chilled in the frosty morning grass.

The Tonedexter is a complete game changer. If I lost it, I'd order another immediately.

That's great to hear! Any clips or videos by any chance?

I sometimes wonder if the tone of the pickup impacts the final Tonedexter sound. What I mean by that is, if you use a pickup that's maybe lacking bass, will that translate to the final wave map or does the tone dexter fill in the sound? I only ask because I would be tempted to get a nice, fat sounding pickup to use if that helped make the final mic'd tone a bit more full

[Cuki79]

Hi Petty1818

I can't answer for Tonedexter. But my IRs solved the lack of bass on my lyric d-18 and adds the soundhole boom to the amulet hd-28.

You should definitely give a try to Tonedexter since say have a return policy.

Cuki

[martingitdave]

You guys are killing me. I'm going to end up getting one of these eventually. But, then the dominoes will fall and I'll need to devise a different vocal processing alternative. The TC Play Acoustic pedal, and switch 3, I use already takes up a lot of room in front of me.

My other concern has been when I sit in with other performers, which I do quite often. Or, when I play open mics. It wouldn't be convenient to have to set that system up.

Allow me to fantasize. If Tonedexter were somehow miniaturized, with little or no on-board control, and attached to the guitar, or fitted into an endpin preamp, it would be ideal for me. I wouldn't mind doing a Bluetooth app, or using USB to make adjustments and do the training. I could see using one of those small diaphragm condenser mics plugged into an iPad. The iPad would do the processing and then upload the wave-map to a tiny DSP on chip device in the endpin preamp. You would have one "8/10" image stored in the guitar. Maybe, it would be equipped with a volume and tone wheel, with the tone wheel providing a "scooping" effect.

In my mind this solves some of the problems. First, most people don't have access to a high quality condenser mic, because they don't have access to mixing desks for recording. But, they might be able to justify getting something for their iPad to use in the future. Or, maybe they already have one. Regardless, it could be a second revenue stream for Tonedexter. Secondly, it makes it portable. Most people only want one good image and probably won't mess with it, once they get it right. It could be called Tondexter Lite.

But, I guess that's why I won't be selling my Aura equipped Martin Retro anytime soon.

Would someone get to work on that already, huh? :-)

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

That's great to hear! Any clips or videos by any chance?

I sometimes wonder if the tone of the pickup impacts the final Tonedexter sound. What I mean by that is, if you use a pickup that's maybe lacking bass, will that translate to the final wave map or does the tone dexter fill in the sound? I only ask because I would be tempted to get a nice, fat sounding pickup to use if that helped make the final mic'd tone a bit more full

I don't have any vids from this summer, sorry.

After listening to a dozen or more samples that folks posted when the little red box first came out, I'd say that the pickup matters "a little". My personal evaluation is that undersaddle pickups like the Fishman Matrix and B-Band will sound fantastic, that K&K and JB and Trance bridge plate transducers sound really good, and Lyric-like stuff is problematic. YMMV.

[James May]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

...
I sometimes wonder if the tone of the pickup impacts the final Tonedexter sound. What I mean by that is, if you use a pickup that's maybe lacking bass, will that translate to the final wave map or does the tone dexter fill in the sound? I only ask because I would be tempted to get a nice, fat sounding pickup to use if that helped make the final mic'd tone a bit more full

To a large degree, ToneDexter will compensate for the pickup's deficiencies. Not 100%, but a lot.

So for example, a UST will most likely sound weak in the bass by itself, but TD will fill it in and make it sound much fatter, more like the mic.

A KK SBT, by itself, will tend to sound too heavy on the bottom. TD will automatically fix that up to get very close to the balance heard by the mic.

Other types of pickup systems, like onboard mics, will theoretically work as well, but some of them, like the Lyric, have some non linear characteristics that limit the degree to which they can be improved by ToneDexter.

They biggest question one should ask themselves, IMHO, is how loud you need to play. That will be the basic determinant of the type of pickup you'll need. Then, get a ToneDexter and make it sound good.

Of course I realize there are many more considerations than just that.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by James May

The biggest question one should ask themselves, IMHO, is how loud you need to play. That will be the basic determinant of the type of pickup you'll need. Then, get a ToneDexter and make it sound good.



Of course I realize there are many more considerations than just that.

I love this post. Take my money. :-)

I'll add that I am approaching pickup choice based also on what will give me usable tone if there are no gizmos available. I really do envision getting one of these in the near future. James did you read my fantasy mini tondexter diatribe above? ;-)