New pickup systems incoming...

martingitdave · #1 08-18-2017, 10:31 AM

As you know, I have a pickup problem. And, no, I don't mean leaving socks on the floor of the bedroom. (Actually, yes I have that problem too. Sorry Dear.)

What I mean, is that I love testing and experimenting with pickup systems. This time, I have ordered a new flavor of pickup that I have yet to try. So, I will share some of my thinking and hypothesis while it is being manufactured and has yet to ship. Then, once it is installed, I will report back and see how my predictions shake out. Why? Because experimenting is fun, and I like to share the process for the good of my fellow pickup obsessionists.

Background:

I'm a fan of many kinds of pickup systems, but I also subscribe to Doug Young's (my pickup aficionado hero's) philosophy that the best pickup is still inferior to the worst microphone. Nevertheless, they're handy little buggers if you intend to entertain people with your acoustic guitars. That said, all pickups are an exercise in compromise.

For instance, the best compromise "gig" guitar that I have is the HD28E Retro. If I played solo all the time, or plugged in primarily, I would only need this guitar. It gets an 8/10 acoustically and a 9.5/10 for it's internal sophisticated Aura F1 Plus pickup system. Martin builds this guitar a little differently, and the pickup will have some detrimental effect on acoustic tone. Martin has done one of the better jobs of balancing the competing demands for an acoustic-electric guitar.

On the other hand, I also play a lot of acoustic only music, and with various ensembles of people and bluegrass instruments. For that purpose, I like a louder, bassier, and bolder guitar. I also play 12 string.

New Pickup Characteristics:

I am testing a new pickup intended for my most resonant and lively guitars. The object is to get a very physically lightweight system that will have little/no impact on the acoustic tone. I also want the pickup to include an active preamp that will allow me to plug into anything from low to high impedance amplification equipment. Moreover, since this is intended for some special instruments, I do not want to use glue or batteries. Lastly, I want something that will give me a "microphonic" quality because these guitars have a lot of overtones and abundant bass. This new pickup is intended to be used in lower volume "listening" environments where careful amplification can be provided with less concern for feedback. I'm a folk singer. We don't like it that loud.

So, in other words, I want a unicorn.

At least that's what I thought.

However...

I stumbled upon a pickup that was popular at one time, but fell out of favor. The PUTW #54. This pickup has an excellent tone, as best I can judge from Doug young's pickup samples. However, it is very low output and requires a fairly high quality preamp very near the pickup. This makes it somewhat impractical for passive installations. Moreover, I suspect it can be feedback prone which would eliminate it from a number of people's short lists.

Doug's Pickup Test of the #54 in a Taylor 914ce:

The Associated Reference Microphone Recording:

The problem remained that I would need to add a custom preamp to the guitars, and that adds a good bit of stuff and batteries. At that point, I'll just stick with the Aura Plus system. Then, PUTW and MiSi got together and had a baby. Huh? I mean, MiSi (the purveyor of battery free active pickup technology) became a supplier to PUTW by providing a specially designed battery free preamp for their pickups. This is not for the faint of wallet. This is an expensive pickup system that is, yet, untested in the mainstream guitar nerd arena.

Did I find my Unicorn?

My K&K feels Abandoned and Jealous.

I like K&K systems. Except for the glue, they are a great all-around low impact solution. However, they are not so great at capturing high frequency information and can sound a little mid range heavy. That's not a problem for some guitars, but I think that it isn't the best fit for these specific guitars. If my PUTW #54 experiment fails, then the K&K will be the next logical step.

So, a little internet digging, calling, phone tagging, begging, and paying has resulted in the order of two inbound MiSi preamps (with VT controls) that are impedance matched to the K&K pure mini pickup systems. This was a special order, and I don't think they sell to the general public. You'll need to order through a dealer.

My (Unrealistic) Expectations:

I am hopeful that the new system will provide quality amplification with VT controls without the use of glues and batteries. I expect that this system will not have the headroom before feedback of the Aura F1 system. But, the gamble is how much headroom I will actually get while trying to preserve the acoustic performance of some very special guitars. The confluence of events that led to PUTW and MiSi partnering will give me an opportunity to find out. If it works out well, I hope this post will lead to sales for their very small, and independently operated, businesses.

Update #1

I've installed the new system consisting of the PUTW #54 sound board transducer pair and the MiSi preamp. The system came pre wired, including the VT control. This made my job fairly easy. The transducers were both backed with "peel and stick" adhesive tape. The instructions are reasonably clear and require you mount the transducers on the sides of the bridge plate, (more or less) perpendicular to the saddle line, and parallel to the bass and treble x braces. Truthfully, getting them lined up is the most difficult task. Secondly, the lead wires are microphonic and the terminals connecting to the transducers should ideally be isolated from the top. They include 3M cushion tape squares that you can stick to the underside of the top to isolate the terminal end. This seems to work well.

I charged the MiSi preamp for a few minutes to get he initial charge. Then, I very timidly plugged it in, almost wincing, waiting for the result. I was a bit dumbfounded when I hit the first G chord. I know we can all get a little hyperbolic with our language when describing new stuff in the honeymoon period. So, I am trying to intentionally be measured. But, this is the most natural sounding analog pickup I've installed to date. The pickup is linear in its dynamic response and flat in its frequency response. There might be a small hint of pickup characteristic, but it sounds mostly like a mic. I know users of the Dazzo pickups make the same kinds of claims.

I got a little feedback when I put the soundhole near the speaker to test. But I didn't get any noticeable feedback while doing my test playing. I suspect it is similar to the K&K in terms of feedback resistance. No surprises there.

The preamp is doing a marvelous job of getting a clean and clear signal with just enough gain to the PA. Truthfully, it could be 3 to 6 dB higher to be "perfect." The gain is similar (a few dB higher) to the output of a hot dynamic mic and low in comparison to some other pickups.

So, it works and sounds great. What's the downside?

Well, I don't know about long term reliability. The only negative reports I have read about this pickup are related to the long term adhesion of the tape. A few folks reported that it even eventually came loose. I can imagine that being true. The solution, I'm told, is to re tape them, or glue them back in like a K&K.

I won't be making a recommendation until I've had a chance to gig this a few times. And, any recommendation would be with he caveat that I don't have long term experience with the adhesion. However, I can say without reservation that this is an excellent sounding pickup system. And, it should be a viable solution in an application where K&Ks are used successfully.

Raw Pickup Test

I don't have the proper gear to do recording or file mastering. So, this is raw stuff uploaded to the cloud. Take from it what you will. The two files were recorded simultaneously through my TouchMix mixer with no EQ or effects. I had the levels and channel gains set to unity. I used the mic that I had handy which is a Senn e935. The difference in signal level shows that the pickup is hotter than the mic. And, the mic is a relatively "hot" dynamic mic. Unfortunately, the levels are very low, but it's the best I can do for now. You'll also note the handling noise of the PUTW. I'll leave these up for a few days. Thanks Maury for the test tune. ;-)

MaurysMusic · #2 08-18-2017, 10:43 AM

NICE! Can't wait to hear your review.

emmsone · #3 08-18-2017, 11:18 AM

Sounds good!
I have the Mi-Si preamp with volume and tone controls on my Dazzo install. I love it, its amazing, makes things so easy! I have 2 minor issues, the second of which you won't have.
1. When you actually plug it in to 'charge' it, you just have to have faith its working. There are no LED's or beeps or anything to tell you its charging or when its done, it either is or it isn't, its clearly fine, but its a weird feeling.
2. I only have a US plugged charge cable. As someone using european outlets, this is not ideal. Because its multi voltage I can just plug it into an adapter and have no problems, but the adapter is another thing I have to remember. The charger lives in my guitar bag, but the adapter is sometimes in use elsewhere.
I haven't found a source for a Mi-Si european 2 pin charge plug/cable yet.

I also notice you haven't got Dazzo's on your list. With having such a long list, i'm surprised you have't tried them yet.
I'd also say the ones i've installed in my guitar are surprisingly better balanced tonally than the K&K's i've had and used in the past. Probably because there are several slightly different ones that suit different guitars. I sent Teddy a recording of my guitar, he decided which option would be the one to suit my guitar, I installed it myself, and i'm about as happy with my sound as I could be, i only have to do minor tweaking depending on the amp/pa system/room.

David

martingitdave · #4 08-18-2017, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emmsone

Sounds good!
I have the Mi-Si preamp with volume and tone controls on my Dazzo install. I love it, its amazing, makes things so easy! I have 2 minor issues, the second of which you won't have.
1. When you actually plug it in to 'charge' it, you just have to have faith its working. There are no LED's or beeps or anything to tell you its charging or when its done, it either is or it isn't, its clearly fine, but its a weird feeling.
2. I only have a US plugged charge cable. As someone using european outlets, this is not ideal. Because its multi voltage I can just plug it into an adapter and have no problems, but the adapter is another thing I have to remember. The charger lives in my guitar bag, but the adapter is sometimes in use elsewhere.
I haven't found a source for a Mi-Si european 2 pin charge plug/cable yet.

I also notice you haven't got Dazzo's on your list. With having such a long list, i'm surprised you have't tried them yet.
I'd also say the ones i've installed in my guitar are surprisingly better balanced tonally than the K&K's i've had and used in the past. Probably because there are several slightly different ones that suit different guitars. I sent Teddy a recording of my guitar, he decided which option would be the one to suit my guitar, I installed it myself, and i'm about as happy with my sound as I could be, i only have to do minor tweaking depending on the amp/pa system/room.

David

David (excellent name, by the way),

Did you get a specialty MiSi preamp, or their standard Crystal preamp? Did you order it from Teddy?

I have yet to try Dazzo pickups yet. I've never seen one in the wild either. I would have no aversion to using them, other than the epoxy used to install them. I've done lots of golf club building with epoxy, but never guitar work. That's a new process for me. So, in fact, I might try those before the K&K for these specific guitars.

jonfields45 · #5 08-18-2017, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emmsone

2. I only have a US plugged charge cable. As someone using european outlets, this is not ideal. Because its multi voltage I can just plug it into an adapter and have no problems, but the adapter is another thing I have to remember. The charger lives in my guitar bag, but the adapter is sometimes in use elsewhere.
I haven't found a source for a Mi-Si European 2 pin charge plug/cable yet.

Not on Mi-Si's short list of things to do, but I made an adapter to go from a standard 9v guitar power supply barrel jack to the sleeve and ring of a 1/4" male TRS plug. I only charge my MiSi's with regular 9v adapters (longer cables and handy for other things on a gig :~), which here in PA would not solve your problem, but a European one would do the trick.

BTW, I don't find the MiSi PUP to be quackier than the other Element options or the Matrix. Given I've got something on the floor with volume, tone and reverb, it was not much of a stretch to add compression and a hint of chorus which seems in-total to tame all the USTs I've tried.

guitaniac · #6 08-19-2017, 10:25 PM

Martingitdave,

I doubt that you'll have a headroom problem with the Mi-Si/PUTW SBT pairing. The film piezo PUTW SBTs have a much lower output than the crystal piezo Pure Mini. As long as the Mi-Si preamp's gain is set appropriately, there should be sufficient headroom for aggressive strumming. Albeit, the output signal strength will be lower than what you'd get from a typical 9v system. You should be able to compensate for that at the mixer, however.

I'm a big fan of pickup designer David Enke. I presume that he's still supplying PUTW and Mi-Si with pickups, but it should be noted that he also has a new company now.

https://opentosourcesensors.com/

Doug Young · #7 08-20-2017, 12:23 AM

The #54, especially in stereo, is probably the most natural sounding pickup I've heard. It can work well with the PowerPlug that David Enke used to make (not sure he does any more), or the Pendulum SPS-1 end-pin module. In both cases, you get the preamp right at the end of the guitar. I know Stephen Bennett was using PUTW for a while at least with his harp guitar, and it usually sounded great amplified. sdelsolray here on AGF uses them, too, I believe.

The downsides of the $54 for me were mostly issues with staying stuck on. I found that at higher volume, I'd get distortion, which I eventually decided was basically "bubbles" in the tape, little areas that didn't stay stuck well. All it takes is an edge not held down, and you'll have an issue. At low volume it'd sound fine, so I'd check it out and home and be happy, then have issues on a gig. There are ways to address this, but I eventually just moved on to other pickups. I did really like the simplicity and how little impact it had on the guitar, I should probably revisit them.

it'll be interesting to see how you like them. It's certainly hard to beat the ease-of-install!

guitaniac · #8 08-20-2017, 05:51 AM

On the subject of the Power Plug, David Enke's new company sells them.

https://opentosourcesensors.com/prod...olsFocus=false

You'll notice in the pic of the mono Power Plug that it has a TRS plug. That is used to passively connect the two wired-in-stereo pickups (UST and SBT) of a Dynamic Duo system in parallel so that the combined signal can be amplified and sent out via mono cable. Of course, the mono Power Plug also works fine with a single source pickup.

martingitdave · #9 08-20-2017, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Martingitdave,

I doubt that you'll have a headroom problem with the Mi-Si/PUTW SBT pairing. The film piezo PUTW SBTs have a much lower output than the crystal piezo Pure Mini. As long as the Mi-Si preamp's gain is set appropriately, there should be sufficient headroom for aggressive strumming. Albeit, the output signal strength will be lower than what you'd get from a typical 9v system. You should be able to compensate for that at the mixer, however.

I'm a big fan of pickup designer David Enke. I presume that he's still supplying PUTW and Mi-Si with pickups, but it should be noted that he also has a new company now.

https://opentosourcesensors.com/

Thanks for that information. I had two takeaways. 1. He is a fascinating person based on his work and research. 2. He, thankfully, is continuing to use the same technology. So, I don't think I've invested in obsolescence.

martingitdave · #10 08-20-2017, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The #54, especially in stereo, is probably the most natural sounding pickup I've heard. It can work well with the PowerPlug that David Enke used to make (not sure he does any more), or the Pendulum SPS-1 end-pin module. In both cases, you get the preamp right at the end of the guitar. I know Stephen Bennett was using PUTW for a while at least with his harp guitar, and it usually sounded great amplified. sdelsolray here on AGF uses them, too, I believe.

The downsides of the $54 for me were mostly issues with staying stuck on. I found that at higher volume, I'd get distortion, which I eventually decided was basically "bubbles" in the tape, little areas that didn't stay stuck well. All it takes is an edge not held down, and you'll have an issue. At low volume it'd sound fine, so I'd check it out and home and be happy, then have issues on a gig. There are ways to address this, but I eventually just moved on to other pickups. I did really like the simplicity and how little impact it had on the guitar, I should probably revisit them.

it'll be interesting to see how you like them. It's certainly hard to beat the ease-of-install!

Doug, that you for the valuable information. I'm both encouraged and slightly concerned. To my knowledge, they use the same tape as Trance. Would that mean a pressure clamp is ideally required to install them?

emmsone · #11 08-20-2017, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martingitdave

David (excellent name, by the way),

Did you get a specialty MiSi preamp, or their standard Crystal preamp? Did you order it from Teddy?

I have yet to try Dazzo pickups yet. I've never seen one in the wild either. I would have no aversion to using them, other than the epoxy used to install them. I've done lots of golf club building with epoxy, but never guitar work. That's a new process for me. So, in fact, I might try those before the K&K for these specific guitars.

You are indeed correct, it is an excellent name.

I ordered my Mi-Si preamp through Teddy as it saved me ordering that direct through Mi-Si. Having 1 international order and 1 set of import fees is better then doing that twice.
I don't know exactly which model it as Mi-Si apparently have a Dazzo specific one.

Having done the install with epoxy, i don't think its much different to doing something with superglue, apart from the longer set time. Teddy does have a specific epoxy he recommends as different epoxies seem to dry with different hardnesses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Not on Mi-Si's short list of things to do, but I made an adapter to go from a standard 9v guitar power supply barrel jack to the sleeve and ring of a 1/4" male TRS plug. I only charge my MiSi's with regular 9v adapters (longer cables and handy for other things on a gig :~), which here in PA would not solve your problem, but a European one would do the trick.

Do you mean an adapter that I can plug onto the end of a One Spot type plug and then via a jack plug into the guitar?
Do you have a picture, i'm not sure exactly what you mean as what i'm seeing in my head might not be what you are explaining.
I was at one point planning to solder a 9v battery connector to the end of a cable with the jack on the other end but I couldn't work out if I needed a TRS type cable or just a TS cable and which way round to solder the ends. (i'm not remotely a wiring/electrical expert)

David

MrErikJ · #12 08-20-2017, 11:57 AM

I had the same experience and opinion as Doug with the #54: near perfect tone, light install, but not super functional. I loved the sound and the low-impact install but it requires a lot of amplification to make it usable which, as is often the case, made it a little less stable. A soundhole cover will help but the ultimate issue for me is that in a live setting I want dependability as a non-issue. I now use the LB6 in my guitars and at a recent gig the XLR-out died on my Para DI and there were no power source for my PZ Deluxe so I had to plug my passive LB6 directly to the board. It wasn't ideal but it worked and the #54 never would have made it that far on an unbalanced signal.

There are a few options for mitigating the #54's weaknesses (which are few but they are significant): You could try an active endpin preamp but you would have to install a 9-volt or use the MiSi, which is kinda weak sauce. I think you would get more flexibility using their Dynamic Trio wired in stereo and then mixed with something like the Baggs MixPro, which is a beltclip preamp. You could also use the 54 passive with the Baggs Gigpro, which with a short 3' cable shouldn't attenuate your signal much and you would have an "out of guitar" preamplification option. A soundhole cover is still a good call.

My advice is less inspiring but finding the perfect live acoustic sound is a holy grail that guitarists will spend many crusades on and lose much time and resources. There are so many good options out there but none are perfect. Find the pickup whose live tone you can most tolerate and has the highest degree of dependability. For me, that's the LB6, for my partner the M80. Neither are Holy Grails but everyone would agree they sound good and they never fail. There isn't a live setting I can think of where the intracies of my guitar's tones would be perceivable to the audience. We obsess over perfection but we just need to sound good and play our best.

martingitdave · #13 08-20-2017, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

I had the same experience and opinion as Doug with the #54: near perfect tone, light install, but not super functional. I loved the sound and the low-impact install but it requires a lot of amplification to make it usable which, as is often the case, made it a little less stable. A soundhole cover will help but the ultimate issue for me is that in a live setting I want dependability as a non-issue. I now use the LB6 in my guitars and at a recent gig the XLR-out died on my Para DI and there were no power source for my PZ Deluxe so I had to plug my passive LB6 directly to the board. It wasn't ideal but it worked and the #54 never would have made it that far on an unbalanced signal.

There are a few options for mitigating the #54's weaknesses (which are few but they are significant): You could try an active endpin preamp but you would have to install a 9-volt or use the MiSi, which is kinda weak sauce. I think you would get more flexibility using their Dynamic Trio wired in stereo and then mixed with something like the Baggs MixPro, which is a beltclip preamp. You could also use the 54 passive with the Baggs Gigpro, which with a short 3' cable shouldn't attenuate your signal much and you would have an "out of guitar" preamplification option. A soundhole cover is still a good call.

My advice is less inspiring but finding the perfect live acoustic sound is a holy grail that guitarists will spend many crusades on and lose much time and resources. There are so many good options out there but none are perfect. Find the pickup whose live tone you can most tolerate and has the highest degree of dependability. For me, that's the LB6, for my partner the M80. Neither are Holy Grails but everyone would agree they sound good and they never fail. There isn't a live setting I can think of where the intracies of my guitar's tones would be perceivable to the audience. We obsess over perfection but we just need to sound good and play our best.

Great input and feedback (no pun intended). (Ok, maybe a little pun intended). What makes the MiSi weak sauce? I have no experience with it. But, I have a few one the way to me. :-/.

jonfields45 · #14 08-20-2017, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emmsone

Do you mean an adapter that I can plug onto the end of a One Spot type plug and then via a jack plug into the guitar?
Do you have a picture, i'm not sure exactly what you mean as what i'm seeing in my head might not be what you are explaining.
I was at one point planning to solder a 9v battery connector to the end of a cable with the jack on the other end but I couldn't work out if I needed a TRS type cable or just a TS cable and which way round to solder the ends. (i'm not remotely a wiring/electrical expert)

David

I'm out of town for a few days so I can't take a picture. The standard 9 volt adapter has a male barrel plug with a 5.5 mm outer diameter and a 2.1 mm inner diameter. The tip is negative. You would need to buy a female version of that barrel plug and a standard 1/4" TRS (stereo) male jack. You would use two conductor wire to connect the tip of the barrel to the sleeve (ground) of the 1/4" jack, and to connect the remaining barrel conductor to the ring of the 1/4" jack. You would leave the tip of the 1/4" jack unconnected. On eBay you can get all of these parts from China for almost free. The quality is good enough but the shipping times are very long (~30 days). Here in the US some of the "junk" electronics re-sellers stock this stuff for more money and shorter shipping time, but it is the same modest quality good-enough Chinese stuff.

I've also made several 9 volt battery clip to 1/4" TRS male adapters so that I can use a battery to charge the Mi-Si. I keep both types of adapter in my gig bag and at my music desk at home.

You could also just cut off the end a Euro 9 volt adapter and mount the 1/4" TRS to it directly.

Given Mi-Si shows you how to do an emergency battery charge using a TRS cable in their manual, I am certain they have reverse protected their charging circuit and there is not much to worry about (also the super cap in their design is only 5 volts and that means they have lots of headroom in the charging circuit to make it bullet proof).

Given the modest impact to a guitar of a Mi-Si based UST or SBT, being usable stand-alone, and being perfectible via a ToneDexter, I think Mi-Si is a great product. These days you can also get a Mi-Si preamp for the Fishman Matrix, if you are hung up on the Element's potential impact to acoustic tone (at least for my installs not noticeable to me). One downside with Mi-Si it is difficult to get them to respond directly and you are best going through a dealer. I find Blue Star Music responsive and very good at getting what you need from Mi-Si, be it product or a question answered. Since I play in a duo and bands, the Baggs Element UST is my preference given its feedback resistance.

MrErikJ · #15 08-20-2017, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Great input and feedback (no pun intended). (Ok, maybe a little pun intended). What makes the MiSi weak sauce? I have no experience with it. But, I have a few one the way to me. :-/.

My experience with MiSi that made me go "meh" and pass on it was voltage and headroom. I don't doubt that they're convenient but PUTW recommended the Para DI or some outboard preamp over it. I'm also not a big believer in endpin preamps as they don't (generally) have the gain flexibility or voltage to not overdrive and thus "quack" when played with a little enthusiasm (when using piezo based pickups). Most of the noise we don't like that comes from USTs and piezo-based SBTs is simply distortion produced at the closest source of preamplification, which you can't undistort. Thus, I prefer to run a passive piezo to a high-headroom outboard preamp. There may be quack but less of it than if I had an active endpin with 9-volts of power with a high-output piezo. The MiSi is a "green" solution but it doesn't (in my opinion) have the headroom to support a pup with significant output.