All padauk top bracing?

[tudor.ciocanel]

Hello
Has anyone ever made a padauk top or other non-mahogany like hardwood tops?
How could I brace it... more successfully?
This guitar will have a tailpiece so, I don't need any extra plates and I was thinking I could make the top about 2 mm thin.

I have made a padauk back and bearclaw guitar as my no 3 before, and thid would be my no... 6 if I finish my fragile figured okoume and another rosewood with traditional spruce tops.

I've been thinking padauk is so reonant and nice sounding it might be interesting, at least, as a top, so when a friend wanted a 'red (color) or dark wood top' that's what I suggested.

This will be the front


And this will be the back





This is the bracing I used on the last 'normal padauk' and I would like a similar 'overtoney' sound


The guitar will also have a padauk fretboard like no3.

https://youtu.be/Ywk6vXDAREI

And finished
https://youtu.be/0bPUAsHjm6E

Thanks

[dekutree64]

What size guitar? The smaller the better with hardwood tops, to keep the soundboard mass down. 14" lower bout is probably the best, IMO. May be able to make it thick enough not to need special bracing at that size.

But the only one I've done so far is a 15" lower bout Indian rosewood top. It's .070" thick, and was 193 grams before bracing (cut to shape and with soundhole cut out) and right about 300 grams including bridge/saddle/pins.




https://soundcloud.com/user-58759988...ood-top-guitar

One of my bracing theories is that if the top is super thin, then the points where the braces meet will be significantly more flexible than with a normal thickness. If you notch the braces into eachother, that "hinge stiffness" can be controlled.

Also, a thin top will feel squishy inbetween braces, so I like to use a more dense pattern so the span between braces is shorter. That second pair of soundhole braces is a bit excessive though, I think.

Side note: Conversely, very thick tops only need the X and upper transverse brace, because the large unsupported spans still feel firm. This is how I do small cedar/redwood tops, where mass is a total non-issue.

Another soundboard wood I'd like to try is purpleheart. It has remarkably good stiffness to weight ratio for a dense hardwood (about the same as padauk, significantly better than rosewood), and pretty good tap tone.

P.S. I have no experience with tailpiece guitars, so my theories may not apply directly to your project.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by dekutree64

But the only one I've done so far is a 15" lower bout Indian rosewood top.

Having listened to the Sound Cloud audio clip of your rosewood topped guitar, I'm curious about your impressions of the instrument. If you were to compare the sound to a softwood topped guitar, are you happy with the sound of the rosewood topped guitar? (As opposed to, "Sounds great for a guitar with a rosewood top".)

[redir]

I'm very curious to hear your impression as well. These kinds of threads are difficult because it's hard to critique someone's bracing scheme by a photo but in both cases, the OP's and the Rosewood top one my first impression is, over braced. But I don't know? I've never built anything but mahogany tops and I braced them the way I would a spruce top, just made the mahogany top a bit thicker/stiffer.

-

Oh and... Interesting workshop view!

[tudor.ciocanel]

It will be an OM with a 25'' dome too. So I guess I can go even lighter.

@dekutree Thanks a lot for sharing your bracing and the souncloud. I've never heard a rosewood top before.

I like the interconnected braces, will use them on the back where I have a big gap. My back bracing had no problem on a zebrawood and rosewood (that fell and broke the top) but an okoume seems squishy and I am wondering how the padauk will react.

Btw, okoume would be cool as a top for mahogany top lovers. It's so light...


The view, yeah, I get a lot of that. I live in China (I work here) and I can't rent a shop (none to be found nearby. Not even a garage) so I gotta work with what I have. Besides, I have to get humidity down by 30-40 from the usual 80% in the summer, so I can't do this anywhere else but home.

[dekutree64]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Having listened to the Sound Cloud audio clip of your rosewood topped guitar, I'm curious about your impressions of the instrument. If you were to compare the sound to a softwood topped guitar, are you happy with the sound of the rosewood topped guitar? (As opposed to, "Sounds great for a guitar with a rosewood top".)

Originally Posted by redir

I'm very curious to hear your impression as well. These kinds of threads are difficult because it's hard to critique someone's bracing scheme by a photo but in both cases, the OP's and the Rosewood top one my first impression is, over braced. But I don't know? I've never built anything but mahogany tops and I braced them the way I would a spruce top, just made the mahogany top a bit thicker/stiffer.

My impression is... good but not great. But I suspect the deficiency comes more from myself than the wood Plenty of volume, but excessive overtones, to the point that the treble strings sound a bit hollow. But that seems to be an aspect of thin tops in general, as I've had it happen with softwoods as well. I thought the high mass of the rosewood would suppress it, but apparently not. It's possible that I actually need to use higher damping wood. Maybe I'll take the quilt maple challenge next But I suspect a smaller and thicker rosewood top will work well, too. Or perhaps just using a higher damping back/side wood like mahogany or walnut (this one is Malaysian blackwood).

Or, since nylon strings need this kind of super lively box, another potential future project would be a very small (11-12" lower bout) and very thin (.050-.060") rosewood top classical with lattice bracing.

But getting back to the one shown, it's definitely not overbraced. It feels plush, and the bridge rotation under tension measures right about 2 degrees, which is what Trevor Gore recommends. It's all about the brace height, not how many of them there are. Upper X legs are 1/2", lower legs 5/16" at the bridge, lattices are 1/8".

[Mr Fingers]

Sorry. I don't understand the point of using heavy, dense woods for guitar tops. I take that back; if you wanted a somewhat dead, feedback-resistant platform for a pickup, or a really non-ringy rhythm guitar for recording, maybe. Otherwise -- what's the point and purpose?

[tudor.ciocanel]

Originally Posted by Mr Fingers

Sorry. I don't understand the point of using heavy, dense woods for guitar tops. I take that back; if you wanted a somewhat dead, feedback-resistant platform for a pickup, or a really non-ringy rhythm guitar for recording, maybe. Otherwise -- what's the point and purpose?

I somewhat agree, and I wouldn't have used it unless it had been requested, but experiments are fun and worth a one time shot.

[tudor.ciocanel]

It has begun.

[Truckjohn]

With tail piece/floating bridge guitars...

The main force on the bridge is pushing down instead of forward and up towards the neck.

As such - instead of making a belly when the top "pulls up" - the top will push down and can make a dip.

So.. When you look carefully at older tailpiece guitars, you will notice a few creative solutions employed... For example - The fretboard is typically tapered to reduce the bridge height. Tops have considerable curve.. Bracing patterns tend to be "center stiff" - aka tapered/straight and not scalloped... Some of these even ran a brace right under the bridge. Etc.

As for a hardwood top.. Guitars have a long history with hardwood tops including Koa, mahogany, and birch.. Its not like this is a completely new idea. I think it will be fine - it just won't sound like a spruce/cedar top guitar...

[tudor.ciocanel]

Originally Posted by Truckjohn

With tail piece/floating bridge guitars...

As for a hardwood top.. Guitars have a long history with hardwood tops including Koa, mahogany, and birch.. Its not like this is a completely new idea. I think it will be fine - it just won't sound like a spruce/cedar top guitar...

I saw belluci making some cool african walnut and ziricote tops for his classicals...

Finally. I have some decent humidity for gluing stuff... but the amount of padauk in my house is too high!

Who said padauk doesn't look cool

Le. I forgot to close the titebond cap.
Tailpiece prototype. Philistine design.

[redir]

Looking good, I like the industrious use of space with the mold over the top of the go stick deck.

[tudor.ciocanel]

Originally Posted by redir

Looking good, I like the industrious use of space with the mold over the top of the go stick deck.

It also keeps it from moving easily and unleashing 20 angry sticks at my face.