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  #31  
Old 07-23-2017, 01:44 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by MaurysMusic View Post
If you're certain you allowed each lens to bond to the bridgeplate - one at a time for 12 hours under clamp pressure - then yes the next step for warmth is to move them closer to the soundhole. Ideally some of the lens should still be under the saddle line. Most of the time, a bright sound lacking bass is due to insufficient clamp time. The times I've done re-installs for customers, my efforts in clamping for 12 hrs were the solution. As mentioned above, the VT control will need to be dialed backwards a bit for warmth. Having the VT wide open adds some treble (in my professional experience).
I clamped them at the same time and I know that's not recommended but they both had enough pressure on them to get a secure bond. If I do decide to clamp both individually, would you recommend starting over with new tape?
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  #32  
Old 07-23-2017, 01:50 PM
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Scott, is the Element UST from your Anthem SL system still installed in your Taylor so as to maintain your saddle height? CORRECTION: Afer rerading an earlier comment, I see you've installed a temporary shim after removing the Element UST. At any rate, I just remembered that Gary Hull recommends not having a UST in the vibrational path between the strings and bridge and top, and that's why he's never marketed a Amulet/UST combo system.

You should not need any other preamp in your signal chain to try to make your Trance system sound good and any additional slight tonal coloration can likely be done with your mixer or amp's EQ controls. As with any pickup system, if you're playing in a "problem" room, then a parametric EQ device may be necessary to remove problem frequencies.
The shim under my saddle could definitely be impacting the tone here. I think I am going to install the new saddle today and check it again. I am a bit worried now about clamping the transducers at the same time but I still feel as though they were given enough pressure to stick properly.
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  #33  
Old 07-23-2017, 02:35 PM
Cuki79 Cuki79 is offline
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Petty1818 how many positions did you try?

If I remember well Doug tried many (one per day) for few days before ending close to Gryphon's favorite position.

He recorded and post samples that show that 1/16" alters the tone significantly. He also reported that Teddy Rendazzo has a system to continuously change position showing a wah wan effect with position.

Finally he ended with the conclusion that red tape was better and that you could try by glueing only for 5 Minutes and do it again until sweet spot is found. (Gryphon's inspired)

all the more Maury reported that lack of bass was usually due to short clamping time.

I say that because I will soon begin my own installation so I follow this thread with much interest.
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  #34  
Old 07-23-2017, 03:30 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Default Trance Audio Amulet M Dual Mono M-VT Tone Control Demo

Here's a demo of the tone control range of the Trance Audio Amulet M Dual Mono M-VT. No external EQ or Effects were used in making this flatpick-strummed recording. Follow the link: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...15&postcount=1
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Last edited by SpruceTop; 07-23-2017 at 05:06 PM.
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  #35  
Old 07-23-2017, 03:56 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cuki79 View Post
Petty1818 how many positions did you try?

If I remember well Doug tried many (one per day) for few days before ending close to Gryphon's favorite position.

He recorded and post samples that show that 1/16" alters the tone significantly. He also reported that Teddy Rendazzo has a system to continuously change position showing a wah wan effect with position.

Finally he ended with the conclusion that red tape was better and that you could try by glueing only for 5 Minutes and do it again until sweet spot is found. (Gryphon's inspired)

all the more Maury reported that lack of bass was usually due to short clamping time.

I say that because I will soon begin my own installation so I follow this thread with much interest.
The problem is that I was only given enough red tape for four installations. Obviously, I hope I don't have to do more than four but it makes experimenting a bit more difficult. I wonder though if it would be possible to use the same tape for a couple installations just to check the tone? For example, if I stuck them in what spot, listened, pulled them off and tried another spot, would it be good enough just to check placement?

I am currently making a new saddle and will test again. I did test earlier today through my full PA and my sound was almost what you would expect from a passive system. The high end in particular had no body to it.

I think I am at the point where moving the transducers will be a must for this system to work. I am thinking though that I will start first with the treble side and then clamp it and test instead of moving both at the same time. Could just be that the treble side transducer is a tad too close to the saddle.
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  #36  
Old 07-23-2017, 04:14 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
The problem is that I was only given enough red tape for four installations. Obviously, I hope I don't have to do more than four but it makes experimenting a bit more difficult. I wonder though if it would be possible to use the same tape for a couple installations just to check the tone? For example, if I stuck them in what spot, listened, pulled them off and tried another spot, would it be good enough just to check placement?

I am currently making a new saddle and will test again. I did test earlier today through my full PA and my sound was almost what you would expect from a passive system. The high end in particular had no body to it.

I think I am at the point where moving the transducers will be a must for this system to work. I am thinking though that I will start first with the treble side and then clamp it and test instead of moving both at the same time. Could just be that the treble side transducer is a tad too close to the saddle.
Call Gary Hull and he will send you more Red Tape. You could try to temporarily remount the transducers with the currently stuck-on Red Tape but it may fold-over, and this, and that, and ... you get the picture.

I'd only move the transducers not more than 1/16" closer to the soundhole and listen for the difference. Whether you keep the transducers where they are now or move them slightly, work with guitar for a day or two to hear what you can get out of it with or without EQing.
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2017, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I just got the standard version without the volume and tone control. I remember reading online where some people found that the tone and volume controls impacted the tone a bit. I didn't read too much into that, I just wanted a simplified version. However, I do kind of miss a volume control.

I do think the VT module affects the plugged-in tone (not the acoustic tone). But I found it to be positive. The tone control has a really nice effect and gives you more control over the sound. It's a little bit of a dilemma for me, because I don't like having the controls on the guitar, I just like things simple, and I control sound on external devices, but I think the sound is better with the VT module... Could be my imagination, it's hard to AB compare because it's a bit of work to install/uninstall.
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  #38  
Old 07-23-2017, 06:25 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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I do think the VT module affects the plugged-in tone (not the acoustic tone). But I found it to be positive. The tone control has a really nice effect and gives you more control over the sound. It's a little bit of a dilemma for me, because I don't like having the controls on the guitar, I just like things simple, and I control sound on external devices, but I think the sound is better with the VT module... Could be my imagination, it's hard to AB compare because it's a bit of work to install/uninstall.
Do you know if it's possible to upgrade? I feel like I can and to be honest, even if it doesn't completely impact the tone in a good way, I kind of miss having the volume and tone controls at the sound hole.

By the way, I have followed some of your Amulet M posts and it sounds like you have tried everything from using the jig to simply sticking the transducers into place by feeling for the bridge pins. I also read the one thread where you moved the transducers around to find the best spot and the results were quite different. I used the jig but my guitar still sounds a bit thin and bright. I am considering moving the transducers towards the sound hole a bit, would this be a worthwhile experiment?
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  #39  
Old 07-23-2017, 06:26 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Call Gary Hull and he will send you more Red Tape. You could try to temporarily remount the transducers with the currently stuck-on Red Tape but it may fold-over, and this, and that, and ... you get the picture.

I'd only move the transducers not more than 1/16" closer to the soundhole and listen for the difference. Whether you keep the transducers where they are now or move them slightly, work with guitar for a day or two to hear what you can get out of it with or without EQing.
You have probably told me before but have you experimented with placement before?
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  #40  
Old 07-23-2017, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
Do you know if it's possible to upgrade? I feel like I can and to be honest, even if it doesn't completely impact the tone in a good way, I kind of miss having the volume and tone controls at the sound hole.

By the way, I have followed some of your Amulet M posts and it sounds like you have tried everything from using the jig to simply sticking the transducers into place by feeling for the bridge pins. I also read the one thread where you moved the transducers around to find the best spot and the results were quite different. I used the jig but my guitar still sounds a bit thin and bright. I am considering moving the transducers towards the sound hole a bit, would this be a worthwhile experiment?

I think you can just buy the VT module. Check with Maury. I've moved the transducers several times, fine-tuning. It can make a difference, but it depends on how bright and thin you're getting. Hopefully, your not installing in a guitar had a K&K before - that's what I ran into, and it's apparently impossible to fix. Otherwise, yes, I'd try moving them and see if it helps. The VT also takes a lot of edge off.
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  #41  
Old 07-23-2017, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
I think you can just buy the VT module. Check with Maury. I've moved the transducers several times, fine-tuning. It can make a difference, but it depends on how bright and thin you're getting. Hopefully, your not installing in a guitar had a K&K before - that's what I ran into, and it's apparently impossible to fix. Otherwise, yes, I'd try moving them and see if it helps. The VT also takes a lot of edge off.
Hey Doug:

Are you saying it it impossible to install the system after a K&K is removed because of the remaining glue and/or the glue that has seeped into the bridge plate. If that is the case it sounds like replacing the bridge plate is the only option. Not very cost effective.
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  #42  
Old 07-23-2017, 10:17 PM
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Hey Doug:

Are you saying it it impossible to install the system after a K&K is removed because of the remaining glue and/or the glue that has seeped into the bridge plate. If that is the case it sounds like replacing the bridge plate is the only option. Not very cost effective.
Pretty much. Gary Hull at Trance says the super glue seeps into the wood destroying the adhesion the Trance pickups need, and that it's impractical to sand down the bridge plate as far as it would need to go to get to untainted wood. That matches my experience with 2 different guitars.

It changes my perception of how "invasive" a K&K install is. You'd want to be sure you really want them before glueing them in, because you are doing something to the guitar that's pretty permanent, even if you remove the pickups.

Someone here has reported they were able to sand down the bridge plate and make it work, tho, so your mileage may vary.

I have been able to install a Dazzo over a previous K&K install, with no apparent problem.
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  #43  
Old 07-24-2017, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Pretty much. Gary Hull at Trance says the super glue seeps into the wood destroying the adhesion the Trance pickups need, and that it's impractical to sand down the bridge plate as far as it would need to go to get to untainted wood. That matches my experience with 2 different guitars.

It changes my perception of how "invasive" a K&K install is. You'd want to be sure you really want them before glueing them in, because you are doing something to the guitar that's pretty permanent, even if you remove the pickups.

Someone here has reported they were able to sand down the bridge plate and make it work, tho, so your mileage may vary.

I have been able to install a Dazzo over a previous K&K install, with no apparent problem.
Thanks for the info. I am a Fan of the K&K pick up, However, I have a D18 which has a hack K&K installation - gobs of glue. It is the only guitar that I have that the K&K sounds like poop in, most likely due to the mound of glue. The guitar sounds great acoustically.

I am contemplating having the bridge plate swapped out and trying the Amulet.
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Last edited by Mbroady; 07-24-2017 at 07:01 AM.
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  #44  
Old 07-24-2017, 07:15 AM
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Thanks Doug. We do stock the soundhole volume wheel and "volume + tone" wheel add-ons for Trance systems ... both in the 9V and Phantom versions. You can make any Amulet M into an MV or MVT at any time, and vice-versa.

I was the one who sanded off bridgeplate glue after a K&K removal. I had to sand a bunch, but my guitar sounds great to me. I will admit, I believe Gary about the residual glue and I do suspect my guitar would sound even better with a virgin bridgeplate. But yes, my post K&K was a success. YMMV.
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  #45  
Old 07-24-2017, 09:14 AM
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You have probably told me before but have you experimented with placement before?
I've moved the Bass-side Amulet in my Martin HD-28 a bit further out (maybe 1/32") along the saddle line and a bit more (1/32") toward the soundhole and it made a slight difference in providing more Bass while still maintaining crispness of tone.

Have you listened to my demo of the Trance Amulet M Dual Mono M-VT Tonewheel's effect on tone? My so-called "balanced" position sounds a bit bright to me and that tone can be adjusted by a nudge of the Tonewheel toward the Bass-end of the wheel's travel. To hear the tone you want in a given playing situation, just repeatedly strum the guitar (a first-position G-chord and D-chord are good) and slowly move the Tonewheel while listening for when all frequencies come into what you consider a pleasing balance. The M-VT module/wire-harness can be ordered and added to your current Trance M system for about $40 (see Maury's post). I encourage everyone buying a Trance Amulet M Dual Mono system to buy the M-VT option for $319. Not only do you get an unobtrusive soundhole module with Volume and Tone controls but it also has a battery indicator light that will warn you when the battery is getting low and will easily enable enough time to finish a gig before replacing the battery later at home.

Martin HD-28 with Trance Audio Amulet M-VT Tone Control Demo
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Last edited by SpruceTop; 07-24-2017 at 09:23 AM.
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