PreSonis Artist or Reaper

gdbird · #1 07-02-2015, 08:36 PM

I'm in the planning stages of setting up a simple home studio....for my own edification. I have done a tiny bit of recording and editing in Sony Vegas a few years ago for local station TV commercials....video, sound tracks, voice over...but that's my total experience. I'm researching DAWs, Mics, headphones, interfaces, and the like. I'm looking for software that is relatively simple to use that gives the best bag for the buck. Reaper seems to get decent reviews....I ask about PreSonus because a "deal of the day" popped up on Facebook for PreSonus Artist bundle for 29 bucks.

Keeping in mind that I'm a newbie and do not plan to record or produce professionally, can someone perhaps give me some direction.My primary genre is blues in various forms and I'm planning on my first "production " to be"The Thrill Is Gone" with a rhythm guitar tract, a lead guitar track, vocal track, and possibly a drum track.

Thanks for any and all advice.

alohachris · #2 07-04-2015, 02:30 PM

Aloha gdbird,

I guess people are on vacation here. Happy july Fourth!

Although I'm no pro as a player/recordist, I have been refining a DAW-based rig for most of the last decade & have been around studio's for almost 50 years. I hope some of my suggestions can help you.

What attracted me to your post was that you stated that you are "planning" your recording signal chain. I believe that's the only way to go, but many players here don't seem to place as much importance on planning a compatible signal chain. Bravo, gdbird.

RE: Presonus or Reaper. Both are entry-level DAW's that will get the basic job done. And the low prices seem to be important to you, right? Reaper is the more popular of the two as evidenced in this forum. They're OK for simple solo guitar & vocal tracks. But when you get into multi-track mixes, they felt clunky & non-intuitive in terms of workflow, to me, very clunky when compared to Logic Pro.

Questions: PC or Mac? Goals for recording? Signal chain plans? Solo or group? Sing & play? Musical styles?

Before you commit to a DAW, download several more free DAW samples from several manufactures & audition them. DAW's work somewhat the same, but each creates a distinct workflow that will either work or not work for your sensibilities, gdbird. Try 'em out & select the workflow that feels the easiest to you.

For example, I started out on Pro Tools PTLE for a very frustrating, useless year & then, after trying out 15 DAW downloads, settled on Apple's Logic Pro. It is one of only two DAW's considered to be fully professional & is found in almost every studio. Presonus & Reaper (& most other DAW's) are not.

Logic Pro has been a real dream for me to use, & is very stable because it's fully integrated w/ Apogee interface hard & software by the manufacturers. Plus for $99, I received 57 individual Logic Pro training sessions in one year at the store of my choice under Apple's "One to One" program. Best training I've ever received. It's also renewable. Can't beat that, gdbird.

DAW's do have a steep learning curve, gdbird, & it stakes a lot of time to master any of them. The Logic Pro training I received really helped demystify it for me & cut down the learning time by a huge amount - though I'm certainly no master yet & record solely for non-commercial projects now.

Because of the steep DAW learning curve, I feel that it's important for a guitar player/recordists to choose & stay with a DAW that works for you. You don't want to be moving around among DAW's looking for better because you'll lose time having to learn the new workflow.

Most players stay w/ the DAW they first choose. That's why I never went with the free or less-expensive Garageband, Audacity or Reaper & many others. I knew I'd eventually want more from a DAW - & more pro-level features. Example: if I wanted to take recorded tracks to a studio ME for mastering, I knew I could do that with Logic Pro or the newer Pro Tools DAW's. Cannot do that w/ Presonus, Reaper, Sonar, etc., etc.

RE: Putting together your signal chain, gdbird. If you're planning on using mic's for recording, you MUST invest in adequate, portable, DIY Room Treatment FIRST.

Make your own broadband absorbers to apply to your recording space. It's actually more important than the gear in terms of consistent recordings. Gotta tame those early reflections, gdbird, especially if you're creating a mix w/ bass & drums. No way around that. Check out the numerous threads we've had here RE: Room Treatment for how to do it cheaply & easily. Here are a couple of how-to video clues from Fran Guidry:

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-on-the-cheap/

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...adband-panels/

Next, spend money on the best studio mic's & monitors you can afford. Buy good cables (like Mogami Gold Quads). Buy good headphones (like AKG Studio 240's).

Avoid most entry-level interfaces. Go w/ an Apogee or RME. They have great onboard mic preamps. The other cheap ones will not have great mic pre's - makes an audible difference to your recorded sound. Store your music projects off your computer HD on external hard drives (Glyph's are the best). If can, use a separate computer for your music projects alone. Don't share music projects w/ everyday computing activities. This will save you a lot of headaches, gdbird. Guaranteed!

Finally, DO NOT mix & match mediocre w/ high end gear in any signal chain. The elements should be of the same quality so they can be maximized & will not fight each other. No junk mic's paired w/ upscale mic preamps, for example.

That's enough for now, gdbird. Hope it helps. Looking forward to your reply. Enjoy the Fourth!

Best of Luck!

alohachris

PS: "The Thrill is Gone" - one of my favorites to play live from the late, great BB King!-alohachris-

scripsit · #3 07-04-2015, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alohachris

It is one of only two DAW's considered to be fully professional & is found in almost every studio. Presonus & Reaper (& most other DAW's) are not.

Not true, unless you have a strange definition of 'fully professional'. Ubiquity is not the same as uniqueness.

Studio One has an advantage over many other DAWs in that it expands (relatively cheaply) into a mastering module. The workflow from tracking to end, mastered product is very smooth and straightforward, in my opinion. And the output is fully capable of being integrated with the product of other DAWs in a 'professional' mastering situation.

Of course, there is a learning curve, which is going to be the case with any DAW, including Reaper, which can produce professional results. Given this, I'd concentrate your choice around the platform you are installing on (PC or Mac and vintage of operating system) and the level of support you can find for your initial experiments.

Lots of home recording people settle on Reaper because of price, but stick with it because of the forum help and regular upgrades, most of which is aimed at people who are not working in a 'professional' recording space.

There are other DAWs than those that have been mentioned, too. Settling for Logic Pro or ProTools because of brand recognition is a bit like only considering a Martin or Gibson guitar.

Kym

whitecloud · #4 07-04-2015, 10:31 PM

I am with Kym on this one. You don't need Pro Tools or Logic to get great results I have been using Cubase on a PC for many years. Dipped my toe into Reaper, but because of my mindset with editing objects/items I did find Reaper a bit frustrating but when I go to my Pal's studio he fly's around using Reaper and has it customized to fit his style of workflow. After Opcode Studio Vision I bought Emagic's Logic Audio back in the 90's so I have experienced many DAW's throughout since then. Most of these DAW's have a demo, so I suggest to the OP do try them and decide what "feels right" Workflow is paramount in my book. Nothing like a buzz kill when inspiration hits you but that creative mood is dampened trying to sort stuff out. What comes easy with one set of tools may not be so with someone else. That is why there are so many choices available.
As far as interfaces, yes don't go too cheap, but there is also overkill as well. My advice is to buy something one step up from what you think is good enough.
Most of the other suggestion alohachris gave are very sound like the signal chain and room treatment.

KevWind · #5 07-05-2015, 07:08 AM

Within the context of what the OP is looking for I would think Chris's advice is spot on .

"Questions: PC or Mac? Goals for recording? Signal chain plans? Solo or group? Sing & play? Musical styles?

Before you commit to a DAW, download several more free DAW samples from several manufactures & audition them. DAW's work somewhat the same, but each creates a distinct workflow that will either work or not work for your sensibilities, gdbird. Try 'em out & select the workflow that feels the easiest to you."
And add one more question projected short term and long term Budgets ?

RobKay · #6 07-05-2015, 10:46 AM

Presonus studio one is a great daw, i know people who have dumped pro tools and gone to s1, the workflow is amazing. Presonus to me is very intuitive and when i first downloaded the demo i was up and running and recording within an hour. It is written with the latest coding and is a very light download compared to many daws, i've run it on older machines that would not run other daws.
Only my thoughts but i'm certainley a fan.
http://studioone.presonus.com
Only suitable as an entry level daw, you've got to be joking.

Rob

KevWind · #7 07-05-2015, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobKay

Presonus studio one is a great daw, i know people who have dumped pro tools and gone to s1, the workflow is amazing. Presonus to me is very intuitive and when i first downloaded the demo i was up and running and recording within an hour. It is written with the latest coding and is a very light download compared to many daws, i've run it on older machines that would not run other daws.
Only my thoughts but i'm certainley a fan.
http://studioone.presonus.com
Only suitable as an entry level daw, you've got to be joking.

Rob

Well first no need for anyone to get their feathers ruffled, every one is entitled to their opinion. Especially since Chris did not actually say "only suitable as an entry level " or that you "need Pro Tools or Logic to get great results"

You in fact don't "need " a DAW at all to get great results ( think virtually anything produced previous to 1990)

And to clarify it is true that any DAW manufacture that provides more than one version of it's product, where there is an increasing amount of feature sets, it is quite common to refer to the one with the least number of features, as the "entry level" product.

But you are correct that people are dropping Pro Tools for other DAWs, primarily because of the fact that Avid is now switching PT to a subscription type model.
Which has a number of PT users up in arms (particularly the personal non professional users), and deciding to jump ship. But to clarify they are switching to a pretty even spread of alternate DAWs.

I myself a long time PT user have been considering whether to stay with PT or perhaps switch. The subscription model notion does not bother me per se. For me it is strictly a matter of do I want to afford it or do I want to have to go through learning a different work flow.

I have looked at Studio One and decided the Pro Version would be the one I would be considering for number of reason's. Not the least of which is it being the only 64 bit version.
Studio One looks like a great DAW
The main problematic issue for me personally with Studio One is the single window concept. I like for most of time having the entire screen real estate showing either the edit window or the mixer window and switchable at a key stroke.
But I am quite certain that if one started with the single window from the get go, this would not be an issue.

sdelsolray · #8 07-05-2015, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdbird

I'm in the planning stages of setting up a simple home studio....for my own edification. I have done a tiny bit of recording and editing in Sony Vegas a few years ago for local station TV commercials....video, sound tracks, voice over...but that's my total experience. I'm researching DAWs, Mics, headphones, interfaces, and the like. I'm looking for software that is relatively simple to use that gives the best bag for the buck. Reaper seems to get decent reviews....I ask about PreSonus because a "deal of the day" popped up on Facebook for PreSonus Artist bundle for 29 bucks.

Keeping in mind that I'm a newbie and do not plan to record or produce professionally, can someone perhaps give me some direction.My primary genre is blues in various forms and I'm planning on my first "production " to be"The Thrill Is Gone" with a rhythm guitar tract, a lead guitar track, vocal track, and possibly a drum track.

Thanks for any and all advice.

Since you have previous experience with Sony Vegas, you already know that there will be a significant time investment to learn how to use any new DAW. So it's a good idea to research which one will serve you needs (including possible expanded future needs) before you get one.

If you amortize the cost (taking into account the future upgrade costs) over, say, 15 years, there isn't much difference between an inexpensive DAW and an expensive one.

DAWs occasionally disappear off the market, or get absorbed by a new company. Similarly, sometimes upgrading a DAW requires upgrading other things, like plugins, interfaces or even computers. Of course, there are many studio cats that jump off the upgrade merry-go-round and stand pat with particular versions of the software because it works just fine as it is.

Once you have a new DAW under your belt in terms of how to use it, it doesn't make much sense to change DAWs because of the new time investment that would be needed to learn how to use the new DAW.

For you stated recording needs, just about and DAW would do.

RobKay · #9 07-05-2015, 12:41 PM

I have to say i struggled with Cakewalk Sonar for many years there were that many bugs in there i found it a time pit and a money pit on each upgrade step, there were that many fanboys of Cakewalk they denied there was anything wrong with it, bugs were never fixed and there were bugs on bugs, when i tested the demo for Presonus s1 i was taken. I run s1 on a home built stand alone computer (pc) and its like a breath of fresh air.
I apologise for flapping my wings a bit, but i can only say as i find and everyone to their own.
Sorry
Rob

whitecloud · #10 07-05-2015, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobKay

I have to say i struggled with Cakewalk Sonar for many years there were that many bugs in there i found it a time pit and a money pit on each upgrade step, there were that many fanboys of Cakewalk they denied there was anything wrong with it, bugs were never fixed and there were bugs on bugs, when i tested the demo for Presonus s1 i was taken. I run s1 on a home built stand alone computer (pc) and its like a breath of fresh air.
I apologise for flapping my wings a bit, but i can only say as i find and everyone to their own.
Sorry
Rob

I don't see a reason for you to apologize and I did you really get your 'feathers ruffled'? If you meant to insult that is another matter. I still think alohachris's statement about Reaper and Presonus somewhat misleading. What if someone read that and took it for Gospel seeing how he is a valued member with many posts? I have used Reaper and although I felt it a bit clunky like chris has shared, it is by no means entry level. There is extensive routing and customization's to be utilized. This is a relatively slow moving sub-forum. People that stay get to know one another. There are times when someone new joins in the discussion but that by no means that person is a newbie to Digital recording.
Yes by 1990 I was abandoning tape and I still remember what I did or didn't like about it. Now we try to replicate it in the digital realm even noise and hiss

sdelsolray's advice about sticky with a DAW once you get the hang of it makes a lot of sense. I have stayed on Cubase for well over 15 years from bad time to good. Cubase 8 is finally addressing major concerns and since Yamaha owns it I feel it will still be around for quite awhile. Like KevWind mentioning Pro Tools going to subscription, that may bother many, but it still is in major Studios everywhere. The price is daunting both soft and hadrware.
My Pal's Studio runs Logic but even he is Leary what may be going on with Apple down the road. There are times when all of this gets to me and I remember simpler days

alohachris · #11 07-06-2015, 01:04 AM

Aloha Whitecloud & Friends,

All I did was provide a rationale for why I didn't want to spend time on learning Reaper & other DAW's I tried out. I also said that both Presonus & Reaper would work fine for gdbird, but less so for dense mixes than the DAW I eventually settled upon. He's planning on creating mixes beyond basic guitar & vocals. I did not tell gdbird not to buy or try those DAW's - just the opposite. I only provided an opinion based on my Logic Pro & PTLE experiences & auditions of various DAW's.

My mantra has always been here, "Try It All, no matter the expense." And "Try as many as you can - before you buy." The free DAW downloads will give gdbird a real & confident direction for making the right selection for him. That was my main point. Wouldn't it be good common sense to not have to re-learn a second DAW workflow, Whitecloud? Who has the time? At least that's what I was thinking when I made my DAW decision of Logic Pro over the 15 other DAW's that I downloaded & auditioned.

BTW, Pro Tools & Logic Pro remain the two acknowledged fully professional DAW's available in EVERY pro studio & not because I said it. Go to any pro mastering studio. Will you find Reaper? It's a good, useful DAW that is very cheap. But you probably wouldn't want to take Reaper tracks to an ME for mastering, right? They won't have it.

Another point about DAW manufacturers. If you've watched various manufacturers over the years, & read lotsa reviews about their updating patterns, you can see which ones are the dynamic ones, the ones to go with - clearly. Many are very slow on the draw to add the latest technologies like 64-bit compatibility. Apple has been the best in that regard, IMO, since I've been tracking DAW's.

Most DAW's still have some problems with several third-party plug-in compatibility. Not true with Apple. Remember how long it took Avid to go with PT stand-alone software & not continue to hitch it to their mediocre hardware? What was it version 9?!? Turned me off! All the DAW manufacturers try to keep up. And certainly, it's changing all the time (like Avid thinking of going to licensing - Ha!). I say, we should keep our eyes on which manufacturers seem to make happen the fastest the things we need & demand in a DAW. For now, I'm sticking with Logic Pro for all the reasons I've listed & time invested. Others will stick with their DAW's for the same reasons. Choices Are Beautiful!

All the best, Whitecloud & Friends!

alohachris

rick-slo · #12 07-06-2015, 01:12 AM

Most DAWs are capable of handling much more than most people will ever need. It's mostly about work flow and that is a lot about what you have gotten used to working with. Personally over the years I have stuck with Ableton Live.

I want a reliable company that keeps their software up to date.
I want real time playing of all audio effects (I mostly use plugins).
I also like a good company website with a FAQ section, a good manual, and an active user forum.

pieterh · #13 07-06-2015, 01:13 AM

I agree that Reaper is not entry level and I know of recording and mastering studios that use Reaper as well as other DAWs. Pro Tools isn't the be all and end all any more as others have said but for the time being is probably still the standard, along with Logic.

I also have to respectably disagree with AlohaChris - Reaper tracks are recorded in wav-format (or MP3, or other formats that the user can choose) and the final mix is rendered to wave, MP3, red book CD and so on, surely providing the raw material for a mastering studio? The original tracks themselves are not changed (non-destructive editing) but edited tracks can be re-rendered as new wave-tracks. What's more, I know one used to be able to export a project to other DAWs though as I have full licence for Reaper I tend to stay with it and haven't needed to do it for a while.

In terms of compatibility and so on I would recommend Logic even though I am a happy Reaper user. In fact, I am tempted to expand my (admittedly simple) setup with the addition of Harrison Consoles DAW, Mixbuss. I've heard good things about this program and the examples I've heard seem to back up their claim of a warmer analog sound to the recordings.

RobKay · #14 07-06-2015, 01:16 AM

Why would studio one one work less well for dense mixes?
Rob

KevWind · #15 07-06-2015, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobKay

Why would studio one one work less well for dense mixes?
Rob

For what almost everybody on this forum would be doing, IMO it is arguably not the case , other than personal workflow and GUI preferences. Because lets face it for most on this forum the track numbers are relatively low with 15 to 30 probably being on the high side. So the reality is as a forum we for the most part do not do dense mixes.

Now if your asking about Studio One v 1 then the above still applies given 10 or 15 tracks . However if your talking "dense mixes" as in currently in the world at large like 20 - 60 tracks common for most music production or especially the 100 -250 track pop mixes and sometimes 1000 + movie sound tracks. Then right off the bat being 32 bit as opposed to 64 bit is pretty problematic.

It appears that with the new version 3 and particularly the features and improvements offered in the Pro version $399 ( multi screen, arranger track, etc. 64 bit ) this is becoming less the case for much of production world at large where track counts may be 20 to 60 .

But for truly "dense" mixes 100 -200 track Pop sessions or movie sound tracks with sometimes 1000 or more, it seems there are a number functions yet to implemented. Even in v 3 pro.
VCA tracks, Smart Tool , and a host of others.

Pretty good review here on SO 3 and the "Misses" comments covers a lot of these perhaps "less well" issues.

http://www.studio-one.expert/studio-...f-studio-one-3

Like Rick, I started and have stuck with just one DAW since 2003 . Personally for me the the GUI and work flow in PT was so intuitive right from the get go .
For me the GUI of the mixer window with the vertical channel stacking of inserts and sends with and downward signal flow, mimicking that of the analog console seems so intuitive and well organized. I look at something like studio one and first impression is it seems cluttered.