why so inexpensive?

[fazool]

TLD version: why are classicals so darn inexpensive - are they cheap?



I've been playing some classical songs lately and really considering a nylon string guitar.

I'm itching to try a Taylor crossover (I don;'t want full-on classical) and someone suggested a Cordoba Orchestra Fusion Pro.

So, I've been looking at Cordoba's and classicals in general - just to see how I like the tone and feel, in my own hands.

These guitars are all so inexpensive. In the steel string market, one might look at a $300 and figure "you get what you pay for". In these however, it seems the "mid-to-high end" ones are all well under $800.

Having no knowledge of this, it concerns me a little that I might be buying a crummy guitar for $300 only because I cant find any good ones for more.

I understand to try one and buy what I like. That's not my point. I want to buy the most/best I can afford so I've set myself a modest budget. Even as a modest budget, I can't find anything, so it makes me think the market only values these much lower - is that because they are less good?.

[redir]

The Cordoba Luthiers series will run considerably more then that but in general I think that companies have figured out how to make descent guitars for low prices over the last 50 years or so. Cheap labor is of course a big part in that. But in general what's available today is far greater and cheaper then what was available just 20 years ago. The more iterations of a widget a factory makes the better they get at doing it and cheaper too.

[fazool]

Sure that makes sense.

But my thoughts are (similar to another thread on this topic):

A solid wood guitar in the Taylor 300's or Martin 15's type level will run you about $1500.

A solid wood guitar of comparable quality in a Cordoba is about $800. I can't even find one in the $1500 range.


More generally, when I look at steel string guitars, prices range from $300-$3000 (excluding extremes on either end).

When I look at classicals, they run from $200-$1000.

What gives with that?

[zhunter]

Maybe a function of where you are shopping?

While pretty popular in the rest of the world and gaining some momentum in the US as a new thing, the market penetration of nylon strings in the US is very low and a selection of more expensive nylon string instruments is largely the domain of the specialty shop. The guitars sold by standard shops are often the lowest cost instruments available primarily because that has been the nylon string market in the US. Only recently have the big box stores expanded a little to get some next level models.

I have found the nylon string specialty shops are often associated with proximity to high population density. Online searching will locate some options but the chance to locally sample a nice selection is beyond many of us.

hunter

[Dave T]

Most of the Cordoba guitars are made in China. That's part of the answer to your question.

Another part is: you haven't seen real quality classical guitars where you're shopping. The good ones (not made in China) cost from $5K to $30K.

The "cheep" guitars you are seeing are just that...cheep. And I'm not knocking Cordoba or any other maker. They fill a need and spread the word about how cool nylon stringed guitars can be. But they are in a different class altogether from real hand crafted, luthier made classical guitars and crossovers.

Dave

[fazool]

Originally Posted by Dave T

Most of the Cordoba guitars are made in China. That's part of the answer to your question.

Another part is: you haven't seen real quality classical guitars where you're shopping. The good ones (not made in China) cost from $5K to $30K.

The "cheep" guitars you are seeing are just that...cheep. And I'm not knocking Cordoba or any other maker. They fill a need and spread the word about how cool nylon stringed guitars can be. But they are in a different class altogether from real hand crafted, luthier made classical guitars and crossovers.

Dave

Yeah,m I'm glad you said it because that was the sense I was getting and I wasn't finding anything in between those $300 guitars and the $3000 guitars you mention.

It's like a black hole of "no good mid level guitars"

[ManyMartinMan]

Actual classical guitars made to top performance standards are extremely expensive. Student-grade guitars are obviously less expensive. "Copies" of tru classical guitars, not made in Spain or by other well-known classical guitar makers are going to range from cheap to moderate prices. Classical style guitars are reproduced in many countries and most, like cheap violins, will have warped necks and/or other issues. Like with most musical instruments, you get what you pay for, if you look carefully.

[fazool]

Interesting market dynamics, however. I recognize they are much less popular than steel string guitars. But the big retailers (GC/MF/SA/SW/M123) seem to carry a full array of steel string guitars but only the cheaper lines of ukuleles and nylon string guitars.

[zhunter]

You don't have to spend $5k to get a decent nylon string. But it does help to be able to find a shop a more diverse line up and hear what is possible.

hunter

[dosland]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Maybe a function of where you are shopping?

While pretty popular in the rest of the world and gaining some momentum in the US as a new thing, the market penetration of nylon strings in the US is very low and a selection of more expensive nylon string instruments is largely the domain of the specialty shop. The guitars sold by standard shops are often the lowest cost instruments available primarily because that has been the nylon string market in the US. Only recently have the big box stores expanded a little to get some next level models.

I have found the nylon string specialty shops are often associated with proximity to high population density. Online searching will locate some options but the chance to locally sample a nice selection is beyond many of us.

hunter

This is about what I'd have said. I'd add that there are A LOT of really really nice Spanish-made guitars in the $1000-$3000 range, but as zhunter has said, it's not easy to get your hands on a bunch of them all at once to try them out (in the US, at least). Also, the all-solid Taylor and Martin guitars that you've mentioned (steel-string) cost that much because of the label in the soundhole and the logo on the headstock. Those same brands make nylon-string guitars at close to the same price-point for all solid woods. They're not traditional "classical" guitars, but they're very nice to play and they have that brand name recognition.

I think that, as zhunter has also suggested here, the lack of market penetration (and brand recognition) has probably contributed to keeping prices relatively low for student/studio-grade classical guitars made in small factory environments.

[Timothy Lawler]

IME they're not less expensive. I'd say it's the opposite, really. For perspective, perhaps check out the webpages of:
Guitars International in Cleveland
Guitar Salon Intl in LA
(both have large selections of mid and high end classical guitars)
Esteve Guitars
Burguet Guitars (both are makers of mid price range guitars up to several thousand $)
Dake Traphagen guitars (high end). He's an example of the many classical luthiers around the world. A student of mine has two Traphagens. There's a strong market for high end classical guitars - above 7K$. Many luthiers have waiting lists.

[dkstott]

Um, my solid wood Cordoba GK pro & Solista are priced in the $1,500 - 2,000 range for new.


QUOTE=fazool;5444260]Sure that makes sense.

But my thoughts are (similar to another thread on this topic):

A solid wood guitar in the Taylor 300's or Martin 15's type level will run you about $1500.

A solid wood guitar of comparable quality in a Cordoba is about $800. I can't even find one in the $1500 range.

What gives with that?[/QUOTE]

[Dogsnax]

Originally Posted by Dave T

The good ones (not made in China) cost from $5K to $30K.

I beg to differ, Dave....there are some incredibly well made guitars coming out of China's these days. I've owned some very high end luthier-made classicals in the 5K+ range, i.e., Eric Sahlin, Kenny Hill, Robert Garcia and my little Hill New World Player 650mm plays and sounds right up there with the best. Made in China.

[rsmillbern]

Höffner makes some decent classical guitars that are lower cost ~500€ (sorry I don't even know if they are available in the US).

I've played a nice Hanika (~1500€) and could tell a marked difference in the sound...

I'd really like to try one of their double top models.

[cmd612]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Maybe a function of where you are shopping?

Took the words right out of my . . . uh, fingertips.

My favorite local guitar store is owned by classical players who branched out into selling steel strings at some point. Most of the nylon-string guitars they stock are in the mid-four-figures range. (They do have a small selection at lower price points.)