K&K Pure Mini in an Emerald X20 - or any other CF?

[Methos1979]

I know you can order the X20 from Alistair with a K&K but it seems that most people get the B-Band electronics. I just picked up an X20 and it's a great guitar for sure but I'm not digging the B-Band. I'm thinking of installing a K&K since I can do so without having to removed the B-Band. I'm just wondering if anyone out there has experience with the K&K's in CF guitars, and Emerald X20's (or other Emerald models)? If so, what are your impressions? Does the K&K in a CF guitar perform similarly to a K&K in a wood guitar?

[AZLiberty]

I have a K&K in my Rainsong Shorty.

The K&K is reasonably inexpensive, gets great reviews, and is completely passive, so I could still use the shorty as a canoe paddle if I needed to.

Biggest problem with the K&K is that it can sound awesome or like complete cr*p depending on the house setup. Thus you really need to have an external pre-amp or at least a ground lift DI box handy.

It sounds good when you go through all the hassle of all the extra boxes, but it's not exactly plug and play the way a Fishman or B-Band is.

This is through a DI box to the mixing board:


If I had to do it again I'd probably go with a no-cut Fishman Matrix. Even though it costs a bit more it's less hassle.

[kramster]

I have the BBand in my X-20 and might add a K&K....I have the K&K in my X-10
and sounds pretty good...though a completely different animal

[Methos1979]

I am very familiar with the K&K Pure Mini as I have it (and have had it) in more than a few of my wood guitars. I just prefer it's simplicity and also not having to worry about a battery dying on me. I play through a FishEye Red Eye pre-amp so no worries there. I have EQ on my amps as needed. The Red Eye is about as simple and close to plug and play as it comes and I find most sound men LOVE it.

I'm thinking of drilling a second hole in the back (bottom) of my guitar and just adding the K&K as a second source. That way I can go back and forth between the two as needed. If I didn't want to drill the second hole I could just take out the jack for the B-Band and tape it up inside the guitar and that way I could easily restore it to stock with no issues.

Kramster - I'm glad to hear you have an Emerald with a K&K in it. You say it sounds "pretty good" and "a different animal"... Can you elaborate on that? How does it compare to a wood guitar with a K&K if you have or have heard one? My hope is that with the K&K setup in the X20 it will sound very similar to my wood guitars with K&K. Since they sound similar unplugged I'm hoping this is the case.

I'll keep this thread posted on what I'm going to do. First thing is I'm going to reach out to Alistair with a few questions on the subject... might just as well go to the builder! I'll let you know what I find out from him.

[kramster]

I have a K&K in an old wood Takamine and sounds great. Guess I got lucky on placement. I have the X-10 set up as well as a Cargo set up with separate jacks (2) on them so I can go back and forth..Cargo also has a Sunrise in it with a wire hangin' out of it (I know..3 pickups??)....The X-10 sounds good enough for my crappy ears..also depends on which amp and preamp...I have too many already but want to try that Red Eye you mention.

[Doubleneck]

I have a Blackbird L13 with K&K mini installed. Run it through a Dtar Solstice at church. It took a lot of EQ for our sound system but has been awesome once tweaked in. I do love no battery cause I can leave it plugged in all morning. It really is a different animal like said, but need to get to know it and tame it like any pickup.

[paganskins]

I've just ordered a K&K pure mini to go in a X20 12 string, I'll report back once installed and tested.

[Methos1979]

Just as an FYI on this topic - I emailed Alistair at Emerald (who replied in less than 24 hours on the weekend, btw) and he said that K&K's work great on his guitars but he cautioned that they usually do a little extra work on the guitars that they install them on by building up and smoothing/flattening out the area under the bridge to make sure there is a perfect surface for contact as that area without this extra work tends to have some indentations that can impede the installation and function.

I reached in and checked mine and the area seems fairly smooth and flat so I think I'm going to go for it anyway, although I'm not going to drill the second hole just yet but rather just use the existing hole and tape up the B-Band jack inside. Alistair recommended drilling a small hole and then using a file or reamer to create a second hole if I wanted to add one, as opposed to just drilling to size. I'll eventually do a NGD post with photos and video clips of my findings once I get the K&K installed.

[JLS]

I replaced the Fishman system in my Rainsong OM1000 with K&K over 10 years ago, never looked back. Anecdotally: they are LOUD, compared to any other install I've done!

[ACP]

I have the K&K Mini Western pickup in my Breedlove dread and the B-Band in my X20-OS. Here are some of my observations...

K&K
Positives:
- LOVE the natural tone - very true. Probably THE best system I've ever heard for pure tonal accuracy
- For a passive system it's very "hot" and transmits sound almost as well as an active system.
- No battery

Negatives:
- Requires a good bit of EQ to get the sound really right. If you are playing in your home or the same venue all the time, that's probably not an issue; however...if you like to play open mics or live gigs, you may find it hard to quickly dial in the sound to be what you actually want. Means buying a good EQ/DI box and fiddling with it every time you play live.
- As a soundboard transducer system, is sits on your bridge plate and it is VERY sensitive to ANY touch on the top. If you flat-pick or have an aggressive hand that falls on the top often, you will hear it tap or boom depending upon the touch.
- Installation - If you buy from Emerald...let Alistair do the install. IF you do it yourself....DO follow the instructions! It may take a bit more experimenting with positioning each of the three pickups, than you would with an under-saddle ribbon. As was mentioned..make sure your bridge surface, for gluing, is very smooth. You'll be using super-glue as the adhesive and once it's on...that's pretty much it. No going back to re-position or re-adjust.

B-Band A3T
Positives:
- GREAT system overall.
- Very good tone for an under-saddle system - one of the better USTs I've heard.
- Has true cut and boost so you can really dial in your sound accurately and quickly. It will give you much more latitude in your EQ range.
- Controls and tuner all work well.
- System does not eat batteries very fast.

Negatives:
- It's an under saddle and will never sound quite as true as a K&K.

Soooo...there are my two cents. Hope it helps.

[Methos1979]

Brought the guitar into my guy yesterday for new strings, setup and discussion about possible K&K install and he immediately could feel the uneven surface Alistair cautioned about. I was in the wrong area when I was feeling around. So looks like I will live with the B-Band after all. I've spent a few more days playing around with it and I've gotten a better sound dialed in. The signal is still weak but since I normally run my guitars through a Red Eye I just use the boost feature to give me the extra I need so I don't have to dial the gain way up on the SA220. I'll be posting a NGD with some photos and video clips in the near future. Thanks for the feedback.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by ACP

I have the K&K Mini Western pickup in my Breedlove dread and the B-Band in my X20-OS. Here are some of my observations...

K&K
Positives:
- LOVE the natural tone - very true. Probably THE best system I've ever heard for pure tonal accuracy
- For a passive system it's very "hot" and transmits sound almost as well as an active system.
- No battery

Negatives:
- Requires a good bit of EQ to get the sound really right. If you are playing in your home or the same venue all the time, that's probably not an issue; however...if you like to play open mics or live gigs, you may find it hard to quickly dial in the sound to be what you actually want. Means buying a good EQ/DI box and fiddling with it every time you play live.
- As a soundboard transducer system, is sits on your bridge plate and it is VERY sensitive to ANY touch on the top. If you flat-pick or have an aggressive hand that falls on the top often, you will hear it tap or boom depending upon the touch.
- Installation - If you buy from Emerald...let Alistair do the install. IF you do it yourself....DO follow the instructions! It may take a bit more experimenting with positioning each of the three pickups, than you would with an under-saddle ribbon. As was mentioned..make sure your bridge surface, for gluing, is very smooth. You'll be using super-glue as the adhesive and once it's on...that's pretty much it. No going back to re-position or re-adjust.

B-Band A3T
Positives:
- GREAT system overall.
- Very good tone for an under-saddle system - one of the better USTs I've heard.
- Has true cut and boost so you can really dial in your sound accurately and quickly. It will give you much more latitude in your EQ range.
- Controls and tuner all work well.
- System does not eat batteries very fast.

Negatives:
- It's an under saddle and will never sound quite as true as a K&K.

Soooo...there are my two cents. Hope it helps.

Very well done, very true with K&K you'll need a good EQ preamp. No free lunch

With B Band great sound but you have a hole in your guitar with the AT3. Also beware of guitars with uneven break angles on strings, more prone to string balance issues.

[DHart]

Lots of good info here. Thanks everyone for the input!

[kramster]

That OX might have a K&K in it as well there DH

[DHart]

Originally Posted by kramster

That OX might have a K&K in it as well there DH

Ah yes. The one you put in it. Both sound pretty good, though I haven't given a close listening comparison yet.