New pickup systems incoming...

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

My experience with MiSi that made me go "meh" and pass on it was voltage and headroom. I don't doubt that they're convenient but PUTW recommended the Para DI or some outboard preamp over it. I'm also not a big believer in endpin preamps as they don't (generally) have the gain flexibility or voltage to not overdrive and thus "quack" when played with a little enthusiasm (when using piezo based pickups). Most of the noise we don't like that comes from USTs and piezo-based SBTs is simply distortion produced at the closest source of preamplification, which you can't undistort. Thus, I prefer to run a passive piezo to a high-headroom outboard preamp. There may be quack but less of it than if I had an active endpin with 9-volts of power with a high-output piezo. The MiSi is a "green" solution but it doesn't (in my opinion) have the headroom to support a pup with significant output.

Thanks for the information! I'm told the voltage is extremely low in the PUTW #54, which is why I assume that PUTW is reselling the MiSi with their systems. Evidently they think there is sufficient head room. I ran an 18V Dtar preamp for a while and liked the extra headroom.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Thanks for the information! I'm told the voltage is extremely low in the PUTW #54, which is why I assume that PUTW is reselling the MiSi with their systems. Evidently they think there is sufficient head room. I ran an 18V Dtar preamp for a while and liked the extra headroom.

You guys do know that doubling the voltage dynamic range is only 6 dB? And if everyone with a 9 volt design simply put a resistor divide by two in front of their preamp it would be noticeably lower volume, but not by much and you would simply turn a mixer knob to compensate (and if that was the end to quack certainly some designer would do it). I'm not sure how much we take as common knowledge is truthful, and how much is marketing.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

You guys do know that doubling the voltage dynamic range is only 6 dB? And if everyone with a 9 volt design simply put a resistor divide by two in front of their preamp it would be noticeably lower volume, but not by much and you would simply turn a mixer knob to compensate (and if that was the end to quack certainly some designer would do it). I'm not sure how much we take as common knowledge is truthful, and how much is marketing.

John thanks for the post, but I'm confused. Are you saying that the 5v MiSi design is sufficient, insufficient, or inconsequential, as compared to the typical 9v preamp design.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Doug, that you for the valuable information. I'm both encouraged and slightly concerned. To my knowledge, they use the same tape as Trance. Would that mean a pressure clamp is ideally required to install them?

I doubt it's the same tape - It's been a while, but I recall it being quite different - but still a very thin tape. The Trance tape is quite unique - Gary says it's proprietary. I think the issue is more the pickup material itself being a thin flexible strip. With the Trance you have two hard surfaces bonding together - the pickup is either attached or it's not, whereas with the PUTW, it's like a very thin strip of plastic or cloth, and you have to be sure the entire think is smoothly and evenly connnected, and that it stays connected. I seem to recall David recommended smearing glue on the surface and letting it dry to ensure better adhesion, but that sort of undoes part of the benefit of just being taped on. I'd think pressure might help, but it's be a different process than the Trance, since you have to press down a flexible strip evenly. There was also a bit of issue with making sure the wire-end of the strip is firmly held in place - for one thing, the wire tends to pull the tape off, but also how firmly it is attached to the top is a key to making it sound good and not rattle, too.

[guitaniac]

The important advantage of using the Mi-Si preamp would be that it impedance matches the SBT signal right at the guitar. That prevents signal loss and degradation between the guitar and the next device in the signal chain. It might well be desirable to put an outboard preamp in the signal chain for additional signal boost, phase inversion capability (when needed) and/or more EQ control than you can get with the mixer.

I personally find that a short cable (10' or less) and an outboard preamp works fine with my PUTW I/O UST. The PUTW SBT signals, however, are noticeably weaker and more vulnerable to signal loss. You have to use a whopping gain level with your outboard preamp and any noise your cable picks up (between your guitar and the outboard preamp) is accentuated. The Mi-Si preamp will solve that problem. A power plug would also solve it, but the Mi-Si preamp is a more elegant solution, IMO.

[martingitdave]

Doug,

Thanks for the info. I've now heard several accounts of the wire being a source of problems and a couple of suggestions of how to remedy, including using foam tape to isolate from the top. I've also heard the suggestion of glueing them in like the K&K, once you're satisfied with the placement. And, if it sounds great, I'd be willing to do that to avoid the potential gig trouble.

Thanks again!

[martingitdave]

Guitaniac,

Thanks again for the MiSi info. I too think it is an elegant solution and I'm excited to try it. My hope is that it has sufficient gain and headroom.

Cheers!

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Guitaniac,

Thanks again for the MiSi info. I too think it is an elegant solution and I'm excited to try it. My hope is that it has sufficient gain and headroom.

Cheers!

If the MiSi works well, an outboard preamp to give one last gain boost and EQ will seal the deal nicely. I like the Radial PZ Deluxe but something like the Para or Venue w/a notch filter would work well too. In my experience, you'll need to cut some bass and mids but I think you'll be really happy w/the tone of the 54.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

If the MiSi works well, an outboard preamp to give one last gain boost and EQ will seal the deal nicely. I like the Radial PZ Deluxe but something like the Para or Venue w/a notch filter would work well too. In my experience, you'll need to cut some bass and mids but I think you'll be really happy w/the tone of the 54.

Thanks for the information. My assumption was that I would keep the initial gain stage in the MiSi moderately high. I don't want to induce feedback. My PA equipment, mixer, pedals, etc. can provide some solid gain. I purchased a Red Eye recently. And, I have the TC Helicon Play Acoustic. If necessary, I'll get an external preamp with EQ. I remain hopeful.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

John thanks for the post, but I'm confused. Are you saying that the 5v MiSi design is sufficient, insufficient, or inconsequential, as compared to the typical 9v preamp design.

I'm saying I don't know that the math supports the power supply argument vs. quack, and that quack is simply harsh clipping in the on-board preamp. All the better UST options are factory stock in one or another high end guitar which seems to indicate they all work reasonably the same. And even if you are a true believer in power supply headroom, it is impossible to know by looking at a Mi-Si PCB (since the cap covers most of the components) that they aren't using some sort of boost regulator to run their preamp from the 5 volt super cap at some higher voltage. Lets say that your guitar preamp has ~75 dB of SNR (better than a Dolby-C cassette tape but no CD). +/- 6 dB on that base is not much and would be hard to notice. There are websites that step up a tone in programmable increments. Last time I tried one I concluded you needed 6 dB to merely hear something is definitively louder.

None of this would contradict a personal preference for one pickup over another.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I'm saying I don't know that the math supports the power supply argument vs. quack, and that quack is simply harsh clipping in the on-board preamp. All the better UST options are factory stock in one or another high end guitar which seems to indicate they all work reasonably the same. And even if you are a true believer in power supply headroom, it is impossible to know by looking at a Mi-Si PCB (since the cap covers most of the components) that they aren't using some sort of boost regulator to run their preamp from the 5 volt super cap at some higher voltage. Lets say that you're guitar preamp has ~75 dB of SNR (better than a Dolby-C cassette tape but no CD). +/- 6 dB on that base is not much and would be hard to notice. There are websites that step up a tone in programmable increments. Last time I tried one I concluded you needed 6 dB to merely hear something is definitively louder.

None of this would contradict a personal preference for one pickup over another.

Thanks for the explanation. That does, indeed, make sense to me. I think only my trial and error with help me decide if the MiSi preamp works well with either the K&K or the PUTW #54. Playing style also has a lot to do with it.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by emmsone

Do you mean an adapter that I can plug onto the end of a One Spot type plug and then via a jack plug into the guitar?
Do you have a picture, i'm not sure exactly what you mean as what i'm seeing in my head might not be what you are explaining.
I was at one point planning to solder a 9v battery connector to the end of a cable with the jack on the other end but I couldn't work out if I needed a TRS type cable or just a TS cable and which way round to solder the ends. (i'm not remotely a wiring/electrical expert)
David

Here are the pictures I promised. I still have not found a new free picture hosting site...

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_...1JUUGp4LWYtdE0

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_...FFRRUx3RHAzbUk

[ceciltguitar]

Also not mentioned: RMC, Barbera. Maybe not relevant for steel string guitars?

[martingitdave]

I've installed the #54 with MiSi. All I can say is "wow." Several of us listened to the samples. I'll post them once they are ready. We actually though the file labels were wrong between the dynamic mic and direct recording through a flat mixer setup. It was very good.

The down sides are predictable for something this microphonic: potential for feedback and handling noise. It's basically operating as a mic, though it is a pickup.

This is. It a good solution for people in loud bands or who play bars. But, if you play moderate volume, or solo gigs, you should give it try.

The MiSi solves the problems that the PUTW#54 presented in the past. It gives enough gain (still less than most commercially available systems) buffers and matches impedance well.

There is basically no weight put in the guitar and requires no batteries.

I have to gig it before making a recommendation. I need to see if feedback will be an issue. But, so far, it's impressive.

David

[MaurysMusic]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

I've installed the #54 with MiSi. All I can say is "wow." Several of us listened to the samples. I'll post them once they are ready. We actually though the file labels were wrong between the dynamic mic and direct recording through a flat mixer setup. It was very good.

The down sides are predictable for something this microphonic: potential for feedback and handling noise. It's basically operating as a mic, though it is a pickup.

This is. It a good solution for people in loud bands or who play bars. But, if you play moderate volume, or solo gigs, you should give it try.

The MiSi solves the problems that the PUTW#54 presented in the past. It gives enough gain (still less than most commercially available systems) buffers and matches impedance well.

There is basically no weight put in the guitar and requires no batteries.

I have to gig it before making a recommendation. I need to see if feedback will be an issue. But, so far, it's impressive.

David

Thanks - this sounds VERY promising!